Zoe Bundy is the founder of Brainy Ladies, an organization that helps introduce science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) as career paths to help girls and women in STEM. Together, the three discuss Zoe’s path, her organization, and advice she has for girls and women looking to get into STEM. Give it a listen and let us know what you think at email@example.com. You can learn more about Brainy Ladies and get a hold of Zoe here: @STEMBrainyLadies on Instagram firstname.lastname@example.org girlsinstemmagazine.com
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[00:00:22] Brad Nigh: Welcome to Unsecurity podcast november 25th 2019. This is episode 55. My name is Brad and I’m joining me in studio is Evan Francen. What’s going on Evan?
[00:00:33] Evan Francen: I think the show notes said sup Evan.
[00:00:36] Brad Nigh: Uh, what’s up Evan? What’s up?
[00:00:40] Evan Francen: All right. I don’t know. It’s early monday morning. I’ve been on a road show for eight weeks and this is a week. I don’t have to travel. So I get to spend some time with you. I’m excited about that.
[00:00:49] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I’m off tomorrow on Wednesday. So no. What? I know my gosh.
[00:00:54] Evan Francen: All right. Well,
[00:00:56] Brad Nigh: I’m looking forward to it though.
[00:00:57] Evan Francen: So much for that. At least my family gets to see me.
[00:01:00] Brad Nigh: You get a little bit of a chance to recover. Yeah,
[00:01:04] Evan Francen: my daughter and my wife, those are the only ones at home now. The others are moved off but they’re like looking at me going, what are you doing here? But awkward.
[00:01:16] Brad Nigh: So funny story real quick and I’m gonna drop this on Evan for the first time. My son, five years old. He was telling me a story about how bees when they sting you, They die and all this stuff. And I’m like, yeah, that’s true. Where’d you hear that? And he goes, your friend from work was like my friend Evan. Yeah, it kind of looks like God, oh no with a long beard
[00:01:40] Evan Francen: and yeah, no pressure. So I told him, I told him that bees
[00:01:44] Brad Nigh: disembowel themselves, I guess. So, I have no idea. I have
[00:01:48] Evan Francen: to be careful what I say.
[00:01:50] Brad Nigh: Uh, he was right. He is right. It was anyway, it was very funny. I love, I love your son. He’s a clown.
[00:01:57] Evan Francen: He’s a good kid.
[00:01:59] Brad Nigh: All right, so you’re back for the week. That’ll be good. Um, you’ve met a lot of really cool awesome people on the road show so far. But truly, I would say there’s a few, if any, you’ve mentioned more with more admiration than our guest this week. Zoh Bundy, I say that right,
[00:02:16] Zoe Bundy: Zoe Zoe,
[00:02:17] Brad Nigh: would you have to start the whole thing over now before we truly formally introduce her? Um, Evan tell me how you met her and your thoughts about what she’s doing?
[00:02:28] Evan Francen: Yeah, well, you’re right. I mean that the most, the funnest and the best and the most rewarding part of this security studio roadshow is the people that, I mean, I mean everywhere you go, if you just take a second to just talk with people, I mean this last week, it was ross the bus driver from who took me from the Kansas city airport to the rental car facility. Uh, and I asked him, you know, hey, how’s your, how’s your day? And he goes in and starts telling me about how blessed he is because he’s got God and a great wife and he’s just like, that’s an amazing guy. But uh yeah, one of the people I met uh in the first time I met, Zoe was 2018 at the Envision concert uh concert. They should make it a concert, but it was a conference I think um where she was giving this talk about brainy ladies and helping girls and stamina and uh steve martin, you know, employee number three fr secure uh came up to me, you have to meet Zoe. So met Zoe and just made a few connections I think here with fr secure with, you know, our rock stars, Laurie Blair and Megan Larkins. And then, you know, you kind of get busy, you go off and kind of do your thing. And uh again this year in the 2019 envision uh conference Zoe and her brother Grover shop at that our booth and I was like, just so cool. So just kind of reinvigorated me because I wanted to I wanted the world to know what Zoey’s doing, what, what she’s up to because I think it’s such a noble cause. Um so yeah, Zoe, she’s amazing,
[00:04:11] Brad Nigh: very cool. All right, well let’s formally introduced Zoe hi Zoe, Welcome to the UN security podcast.
[00:04:18] Zoe Bundy: Ah thanks for having me.
[00:04:20] Brad Nigh: Thanks for staying on. Even after I mispronounced your name?
[00:04:23] Zoe Bundy: No problem.
[00:04:26] Brad Nigh: So go ahead. Even
[00:04:28] Evan Francen: Know I’m just, what generation do they call? 15 year olds now? James,
[00:04:32] Brad Nigh: E Z.
[00:04:34] Evan Francen: Generation Z.
[00:04:35] Zoe Bundy: Generation Zoe
[00:04:37] Evan Francen: boom winning. That’s pretty cool. So I don’t know like the uh it’s cool that, you know, nowadays I don’t really know, You know, I have a 15 year old daughter at home, my own 15 year old daughter. And uh there’s an age, I don’t know what it is, maybe 14, 13. It happened with my previous daughter too, where it’s like, I don’t understand them anymore. So that’s another cool thing is we get, we get to spend some time with always to get to know her. Uh you know, Yeah, all that kind of
[00:05:13] Brad Nigh: cool stuff. So I guess we’ll get to know you. So a couple of, we’ll start with, I guess, you know, first off, how old are you? 15, 15, so freshman in high school. Uh, I mean, so you’re ceo of a brain ladies. So I guess maybe talk a little bit about, you know, where did you come up with the idea for Brainy ladies? Um, what was the inspiration for that?
[00:05:41] Zoe Bundy: Yeah, so in sixth grade, um, there was a tech group at our school called Tech leaders and there were 30 kids in the group. Um, there were 29 guys and I was the only girl which usually in the other clubs that I’ve been involved with, there’s been more people than that. Like friends that I can hang out with girls. Things like that. And that opened my eyes to, oh, that’s weird Um where are the girls? And I talked to friends and they were like, yeah, that’s not really what I’m interested in. I don’t even think, why would I want to go there? There’s 29 guys who would outsmart me or whatever. 7th Grade, I Go through a Science Club called Science Olympian. They have 22 people in their group um and you do projects and compete with them science related. So out of that whole group, there were two girls including myself and that was again like, hey, where are the girls? Like it’s science, everybody, it’s for everybody, there’s no, you have to be a guide like science things like that. Then 8th Grade I And then lego robotics and there are 40 kids. And out of both teams, we have three girls including myself. And so it was just kind of like went in the world, this doesn’t make sense because every other called that I’m in Student Council, things like that, there are way more girls than this. So I, yeah, I looked into it and um when I was in seventh grade, I joined an entrepreneur class with our local chamber of Commerce called young entrepreneurs academy and they said, ok, you’re going to create a business, you can brainstorm and then we’ll make uh we’ll help you make a marketing plan a financial plan, then you’ll pitch to investors, things like that. So when I was planning, I said, I want to do something to help girls, even just look into stem careers, You don’t have to do it, but just be aware that that’s an option. So I wanted to do paper magazine first and I realized, oh my goodness, this is way too much work. Like the printing, shipping. No way I’m like 13 and that’s, that’s not even an option. Um, then um, I decided, hey, maybe if paper magazine doesn’t work, I could do an e magazine. So I was working on that and through that process, I’m like, this is so much work. I do not want to spend hours on my computer every single day trying to fit 30 pages of content by myself. And so then I, the end goal, which I actually presented, which has now changed, was a website with subscription based, um, learning. So you do A $15 subscription for the year, which is pretty cheap and you get to learn all that stuff and watch my speaking videos, things like that. So I pitched to an investor panel kind of like shark tank, um, with local college presidents as the judges and things like that. And I got 1750. So $1,750 to start bringing ladies and I use that to help buy supplies at any computer brand new. It was amazing. Yeah. I’m actually reading the notes off of here right now. And um, it was a really good experience And after I got back from a trip because part of the investor panel as they choose one person to go to new york and compete at a national level. Um, is you get the free trip to new york. So once I got home, I was like embraced by the community and it was every week I had a speaking engagement now and I realized, wait, I could actually charge people for speaking and make money off of speaking because I was making more money. Speaking people would just be like, hey, thanks for coming here some money. And I’m like, wow, okay, that’s cool. Um, I made more money speaking. So then now it’s changed to, I have a website where people can sign up for an email newsletter and see our social media, I’ll probably put some of my speaking videos back up and um, I do public speaking.
[00:09:55] Brad Nigh: Oh, that’s so yeah.
[00:09:57] Evan Francen: And I’ve been to your website. What’s the, what’s the U. R. L. For the listeners
[00:10:01] Zoe Bundy: brainy ladies dot net
[00:10:04] Evan Francen: And I’ve been there and I’ve signed up and I would love to see, I haven’t seen any of your speaking video. So I’ve never actually seen you speak before, but you know, the expectations are pretty high because every time I’ve met you, you know, you just, you’ve got this energy about you. Uh, you’ve got this passion, You’ve got this gift. Uh, so I’m excited to see that when you get those videos back up there, you know, check him out. So do you have, do you come from a family? Uh you know of, you know, engineers, mathematicians, technical folks. I mean what got you sort of initially involved in, you know, going to these clubs?
[00:10:43] Zoe Bundy: Yeah, I I am just a curious person. So I was kind of looking for anything cool, creative career exploration is a cool topic because you don’t have to love everything that you see. So you can go through middle school and go through all the clubs that are free that meat like that tight group met during school. So I didn’t even have to come after school before school and it was just looking at different clubs, activities that could be of possible interest. Um My dad did, I think he still does, he does, I know that he does website design and things like that for other businesses in the southern area. So I know he runs the website for a grocery store in texas and manages our church website and things like that. So I think that was part of the technical background that was an interest.
[00:11:39] Evan Francen: Well, I love the fact that your curiosity. I mean that is so key and I mean it it serves even for adults, you know, I get asked all the time from people that want to get into this industry and like what makes it, you know, what would make me really good and it’s that never ending pursuit of learning this constant
[00:11:58] Brad Nigh: and curiosity never happy just like stay put. Always always pushing
[00:12:04] Evan Francen: right? What’s super cool. So go ahead bread. Well I was just saying so you your father is in tech a little bit now. Grover. I met Grover. Uh And you know this show isn’t about Grover. I mean let’s be honest it’s about you. So but I did meet Grover and I was impressed by him too. I mean he’s doing some kind of robotic things and he’s an electronics. I mean he’s a smart kid too.
[00:12:29] Zoe Bundy: Yes extremely. He actually funny story a few days ago he got home and he said so he so I just got the coolest thing. I got a band saw brand new for $80 at Lowe’s. We’re never gonna believe this. And so he um my parents said well if you clean your room it can stay in your room. So he’s had a ton of fun with that.
[00:12:53] Evan Francen: So he’s gonna ban in his room.
[00:12:56] Zoe Bundy: Yes he has a workbench to
[00:12:58] Evan Francen: I don’t know any other kid, I’m leaving adults.
[00:13:01] Brad Nigh: So it’s super cool. Yeah my oldest is 13 and just is in woods right now and each grade and so they did a car. I’ll have to see if she’ll let me post a picture. I think she didn’t really did it.
[00:13:15] Zoe Bundy: Is it c. 0. 2
[00:13:16] Brad Nigh: car? Uh I don’t know if they did the co two I think it was more just the Pinewood Derby just you know carving it. But she did I mean it was a pretty ambitious approach. He started it with the her motivation or inspiration was a caterpillar so it’s kind of wavy and she’s a really good job but she she loved doing that and she’s excited
[00:13:41] Evan Francen: now did she built it herself? Because I’ve been a lot of pinewood derbies over the
[00:13:45] Brad Nigh: you know she was a school project but she’s excited because now she’s like well now I know how to use the band, saw all the other different tools and she can help you do a lot of home improvement projects have to finish your basement. And I’ve seen super excited to help with that.
[00:14:00] Evan Francen: And I’ve seen some eight year olds with Pinewood Derby cars that an engineer 20 years experience can’t build.
[00:14:06] Brad Nigh: No she did it all herself.
[00:14:09] Zoe Bundy: Well that’s awesome because we have a woods class at my high school level And it’s open to all grades. And we actually have I think we have 10 kids in our costs. I’m not in the cost this year but 10 kids in the woods class at our school. Woods one and there’s only one girl in the class so way to go. That’s amazing.
[00:14:29] Brad Nigh: She’s they’ve got a three d. Printing thing something with it. She’s gonna be doing that as well. So she’s she’s pretty excited. She wants to be an architect right now. So we’ll see, we’ll see how that goes. But it’s very cool to, to hear. Yeah, I think, you know, it does hit a little close to home with that being my daughter is kind of similar in that in that vein and there isn’t a lot of resources out there. They’re mostly targeted for boys.
[00:14:56] Evan Francen: Right? Yeah. I bought an Arduino kit because I wanted to sit down with my daughter and ah you know, just do some electronics together programs, some PLC s whatever. And then uh she showed no no interest at all. Which is fine because I think the point is stem is an option for kids but it’s not everybody’s calling either. Right? And that’s okay. You know, I mean accepting people for sort of who they are I think is really the point and getting everybody every opportunity possible to succeed, right?
[00:15:29] Brad Nigh: Yeah. It’s funny the difference in kids, my little daughter right now is thinking, so she’s 11/6 grade and she’s looking at the, was it that Children’s advocate or whatever. So my son has to go to the doctor all the time for testing and stuff and they have those advocates or whatever that basically they’re kind of sort of like social workers that help younger kids toddlers and and stuff that are going through tests to feel comfortable and understand it. So kind of like teacher social worker and great, it stems not for you, it’s not for you, but it’s there if it if you’re interested?
[00:16:07] Evan Francen: So so you’ve given all sorts? I mean about how many talks have you given so far? Would you say?
[00:16:17] Zoe Bundy: My guess is about 25 because I’ve been at this for about two years, so good for
[00:16:22] Evan Francen: you. That is so clearly impressive. And uh was there any one particular talk that you’ve given that sort of stands out from the others? Is maybe one more, we were the most nervous or there was you know the most challenging audience. I mean can you think of one where it’s just it just sticks out more than the others
[00:16:39] Zoe Bundy: envisioned
[00:16:40] Evan Francen: in 2000
[00:16:42] Zoe Bundy: 18? Yeah I think the prep for the speech was stressful because they’re like we want you to talk for him. I don’t know, I think it was 25 minutes which was like oh my goodness, how do I feel 25 minutes, this is crazy. Which now I could be like oh I could fill 25 minutes. And um so the prep for it was hard and then when I got there it was like um these are all I. T. Guys like what in the world I’m supposed to be doing my goal of females and stone to a group of I. T. Guys which I will give them credit, they were extremely supportive so that was really cool but that was probably my most like really nervous, what in the world, this is crazy.
[00:17:27] Brad Nigh: So with those speaking engagements, what are the typical, you know, audiences? Is it more the, it is, it just mentioned speaking in front of some politicians. You know, what does that look like?
[00:17:39] Zoe Bundy: Um, there’s a variety. So a few of the bigger ones that I’ve done is envision and then I also do state, I have done State of technology with the some politicians, which has been released. They’ve been really supportive. Um, a few other ones that I’ve done. Um, I’ve done a lot with teens and younger people. I know a group of girls and I, we spoke at an elementary school last year and that was really cool because we had a few kids who, when I asked, I said, you guys know what you want to be when you grow up And we have like four fourth grade girls in the front row say, yeah, I want to be a Nasa engineer, I want to do math and I want to do these crazy things and I’m like, this is amazing. And so it’s too, my main audience is teens and younger people. I’ve spoken at the air museum. They have a group every month that’s free and they learn about different tech stuff, things like that. They do marketing. And so I’ve helped out, um, by teaching the marketing class or the just anything kind of stem and marketing based
[00:18:46] Evan Francen: that’s so cool. So do you have a, do you have your next talks scheduled already?
[00:18:51] Zoe Bundy: Yeah, technically, yes, but it’s really short this Wednesday, um they’re doing an event called one million cups. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. Yeah, so they have entrepreneurs come and share about their business or brand and then they asked, what can we do for you? And that’s kind of like there main, if you come for the event, that’s your main takeaway and it’s really cool because you’ll have tech startups and different brands that are really young and then you watch them from the bottom up. And so I’ve seen a lot of businesses come out of that and it’s really cool to see that. But I spoke there two years ago right after I came back from new york and this Wednesday, they’re doing a speaker reunion. So any of their past speakers can come and share uh two minute update with everybody and then have coffee with the senator. So that’s cool. That’s technically my next speaking. But it’s two minutes.
[00:19:48] Brad Nigh: I mean it’s still speaking. She is
[00:19:51] Evan Francen: and I can’t do a two minute talk. I think uh my daughter, you know, we’ll talk about, you know, maybe a speech that she has to give at school and just get like, you know, it’s gonna be seven minutes. It’s like, well, you know,
[00:20:05] Brad Nigh: only seven minutes.
[00:20:07] Evan Francen: I know I gave a talk in denver. No, I don’t know june maybe was three hours. Oh my God. I know. Right? So I start off like all right guys we got three hours to spend together. I’m just gonna talk really really slow. Yeah well they had to do it for Cps and it was about incident response. Uh So it was it was to a trade group and it was it was well attended. I think the talk went well but three hours is the longest talk I’ve definitely given.
[00:20:39] Brad Nigh: I did two hours in D. C. To school administrators about security man. And only like a third of the people that we were expecting showed up because it was like 75 and sunny and just amazing out and everybody was just outside enjoying the weather. Right?
[00:20:55] Evan Francen: And you were speaking on a
[00:20:56] Brad Nigh: sunday? Yeah sunday afternoon. It was yeah it was it was rough.
[00:21:03] Evan Francen: All right. So you so now Brainy ladies is a thing. You’re a freshman in high school. Um What are your plans with this thing? What do you what do you want to do with the ladies?
[00:21:17] Zoe Bundy: Um Right now I’m working with my past connections. So Caitlin Fox actually I think she works with you guys. Um As far as I know. Yeah. Um So I am falling up with anybody who have passed contacted in the past two years. So I have like a huge stack of business cards. I’m just working through to reconnect and see if they have any recommendations or just if they want to be part of bringing ladies to share their story, things like that. My goal is that by the beginning to like the beginning of quarter one, mid quarter one of 2020 to get most of my stories done and put on brainy ladies, so that would be I’m sharing the stories of people that I’ve connected with. One of my coolest ones is I was at the air show and this girl came up to me And she’s the first female pilot at the 195th harrowing for National Guard in North Dakota and we’re talking and I said this is crazy, how many years has this been open? And she’s like over 100 years and she’s the first female pilot, so there’s a ton of cool stories and even Kaitlin’s story, I don’t know a lot of women insecurity um or like digital security even at that, so I think more sharing stories and getting the word out,
[00:22:43] Brad Nigh: that’s cool. It doesn’t have to have our although all the women on our team,
[00:22:48] Evan Francen: we have amazing, I mean we are, but another thing is in our industry, you know, when I wrote my book and I think things have changed a little bit for the better, but 11% of our workforce is made up of women, that’s awesome and so we had to, one same thing happened here, I mean we needed to get intentional, I was talking to john Herman about this podcast coming up and how excited I was to talk to Zoe and just kind of learn? Um and I said, why do you think that is? Because I did read online on your website. So where you, you sort of got started here, where you were in that group and you were the only girl there. Uh, and I was, I was asking john why do you think that is? I mean, why aren’t more girls in stem and you know, there’s just kind of this if you’re not intentional and you just sort of let things go the way they go, right? You just don’t even, I mean, I think some people don’t even think about it. Yeah,
[00:23:52] Brad Nigh: I think we’re doing pretty well. We have four of 11 on consulting.
[00:23:57] Evan Francen: Yeah. Well we, but we needed to be intention to, right? I mean the thing I liked the most about having people with different backgrounds, including women, including, you know, different cultures working together is I know that if when you solve a problem coming at it from different angles, different perspectives is so valuable. And I like when people think differently than me because together we come up with a much better solution. Yeah, rape. So I’m uh that’s one of the reasons why I’m just so jazzed about brainy ladies and I want to see this thing, you know, kind of take off now. Do you have, if you do you kind of see yourself? So he like doing this forever or do you, do you have like a career path that you’re thinking or you know, what are you, what are you thinking about? All that stuff?
[00:24:51] Zoe Bundy: So I’m in ninth grade, I have three years until I graduate, which is crazy to think about. But um, you know, I’m not really sure at this point, I am involved in other clubs and activities. Um a friend and I started a club this year at Davies in Fargo High School and that club took off really quick and it’s been a ton of work. Um it’s getting women into business, which is amazing. So there’s a club that I run there and then also I am in police explorers with the Fargo Police Department and just exploring, they give you basic law enforcement training and I have loved that. So I’m not really sure, I think my goal maybe is to become a police officer or something along the lines of that or to do business. I’m kind of open for anything
[00:25:45] Evan Francen: That’s so cool. But you know, you bring up a great point. I’m in 9th grade, I was, I was telling brad and I don’t know if I’ve ever shared it on the, on the show, but I was a stockbroker. Uh, so in order to be a stockbroker, you have to pass your series seven and 63, which are just the series seven is just a mammoth crappy test. Um and that was in like my sophomore year in college, right? So I decided I wanted to be a stockbroker because I wanted to make tons of money. Right, this is like when Wall Street was kind of a movie and all that stuff, I didn’t realize that you have to make 100 cold calls a day And work straight Commission. So I was like, Oh my gosh, this stinks. So I made like $2500 for the full year. Um but then I went and I was a bill collector, a mortgage broker, a bartender, a warehouse worker, a warehouse manager Before I ended up in security. That was all, you know, from like the age of like 20, It took maybe 22. Um, so it was weird because you bring up a great point. You don’t have to figure this out right away, right. Try all these new things, see what fits. So that’s, that’s really cool. I know some 50 year olds who still haven’t figured it out, I’m not going to name names. There is an age when it’s probably time to get your
[00:27:12] Brad Nigh: act together with your life. So the question, what do you, you know you mentioned that a couple of your friends helped, you found another club, but overall, what are your friends at school? Think of you founding this and doing all these speaking engagements,
[00:27:28] Zoe Bundy: Some are supportive and some are just there, I guess, you know, some of them are really supportive in there, like this is crazy, how did you even, why would you even like crazy, just blown away at the idea that somebody so young would do something cool and I’m not in sports. So I just tell people, you know, like I’d rather just do business as a sport than play sports. I can play, I work out by myself, but I don’t do sports. So there’s that and they, they have mixed feelings, I guess a lot of them are really supportive, but
[00:28:10] Brad Nigh: I like how you phrased it. Somebody this young does something that’s cool. Well, that’s a really good way of phrasing it. Like,
[00:28:17] Evan Francen: well, I think so many times, you know, it seems like these, this generation just needs some motivation, just needs to be,
[00:28:24] Zoe Bundy: yes,
[00:28:25] Evan Francen: just pushed a little bit because look at all these amazing things. I mean Zoe, I didn’t know that you were thinking about being a police officer, you’re in the Explorer’s program. You’re doing all these other cool things by the way. I have a son. I call him my mexican sun long story, not going to tell you about it now, but he’s a police officer in Lenexa Kansas.
[00:28:46] Zoe Bundy: That’s awesome.
[00:28:48] Evan Francen: Yeah. And we just, I was just down in Kansas city a couple weeks ago and stopped in and saw him on patrol. It was, I’m just so proud of him. So if you decide to go that route. Um, yeah, I can, I can see what I can do. Yeah. Which is a cool thing. So what can we do, you know, brad and I or any of the listeners do to help you or support you with what you’re doing with brainy ladies.
[00:29:14] Zoe Bundy: Yeah. So I think as a brand, um, if you have connections, well, you obviously work on a team where you do have women on your team, if they are interested, there’s local clubs in every state that I’m aware of and they can get involved at the school level. So if they want to be a mentor or a judge for like lego robotics, I’m getting involved directly with a club. Two help them in any way they need, we have a group in Fargo where they teach girls how to code and so we always need more mentors and things like that. There’s business classes like young entrepreneurs academy where they can also mentor in all 50 states, but then we also have we, I mean I have this idea where if everybody could empower one person, we would have a much better world. So as a listener, I think the takeaway from at least my point is just go empower somebody or empower a bunch of people, but tell them something nice listen to what they have to say because I think there’s a stigma around teenagers that they are on their phone all the time and there there’s, it’s not, everybody doesn’t say it, but it’s kind of there. So I think we just gotta listen to ideas because this generation is leaving at some point and it will but we just have to get there by listening to ideas and sharing ideas and to go off of that help teams find their voice because a lot of kids don’t feel like they have a voice and it’s there, they just need to use it. So use your voice and empower.
[00:30:59] Brad Nigh: We had listened two weeks ago now to a futurist air quotes but he had a really good point where you know, as you grow in your career, you start mentoring people but you should also get a younger where you’re meant there, the mentor right, exactly what you’re saying? So get get somebody who’s in their teens or early twenties just starting out and let them enter you as you get older and further along in your career to see and understand what the younger generation is doing and understanding and their approach on it because I mean really aligns with what you just said, a really good idea.
[00:31:36] Evan Francen: So I wonder if in your opinion, Zoe based on what you’ve you know, obviously you don’t get to talk to everybody but based on what you’ve seen. Do you think this generation, meeting parents do more telling and less listening should they do more listening than and less telling you think is that one of the takeaways
[00:31:56] Zoe Bundy: mm? It’s both ways,
[00:31:58] Brad Nigh: we can make sure your parents don’t hear it. So you can tell the truth.
[00:32:02] Zoe Bundy: I think phones are crazy right now. Um, they’re always changing. Social media is huge. Um, I think one thing telling wise is make sure that you know what’s going on because there’s a ton of stuff on social media. Just if you even know that your kid is on social media, I guess. I know my parents know that I’m on instagram and other actually I’m just on instagram. So it’s not like other sites I got blocked on facebook. Okay. So, uh, no, what’s going on? You can tell. Um, then also listen to what’s going on? So tell what’s going on by asking what is going on and then listen to what’s going on? Do you think? Oh yeah. Well
[00:32:57] Evan Francen: do you think most parents have no idea what their kids are doing on their phones?
[00:33:02] Zoe Bundy: I think so. From what I can tell at school at least I know I’m friends with a few like people know me at church. So my friend’s mom will come up to me and she’s really nice and then I go to school and all I hear is this kid is bullying everybody else and it’s like, how do they not make the connection here that there’s kids who are in tears over there and the mom just came up to me and said, Hey, how are you? And was checking in on me and I’m like, this is crazy. How is this not good.
[00:33:36] Brad Nigh: We’ve talked about the cyber bullying and the issues around that
[00:33:41] Evan Francen: when I think there’s a big undercurrent to, of sex trafficking of, you know, you know, I was talking to my daughter, um, because I do have these conversations and I think more parents should have conversations, but I was asking her about, uh, you know, just, you know, what’s, what, what she does on the phone, you know, trying to learn healthy behaviors versus unhealthy behaviors and um, you know, she’s saying, you know, it’s really popular now for kids to ask for nudes. I’m like, what? He’s like, yeah, I’m like, oh my God, that would never happen. I mean we didn’t have these ways of doing these things when I was a kid saying, so I think it’s just a different world and I think some parents, I know it’s human nature that if I don’t understand something, ignore it and hope it will go away, But it won’t, you have to invest in your kids, You have to be present.
[00:34:35] Zoe Bundy: I don’t know what’s, what’s crazy is, um, do you guys, So I’ve talked to other adults and Tiktok is not familiar to a lot of adults. Um, are you guys aware of Tiktok,
[00:34:48] Evan Francen: my daughter just tick tock extensively.
[00:34:51] Zoe Bundy: So, um, over 90% of their users are under 24, which they have like billions of them. Um, I believe it’s, we did the mass in my marketing class a few days ago, It’s like seven million people are on the app every single day, wow. And at least. And that’s globally. So, um, there’s an issue there because you record a video. So the video, you can add words. It’s like an instagram story, but it’s a full video that stays there. And so people use those for cyber bullying and for other things. And it’s really hard to be okay with what’s going on there and then get to school and see it in person. But then also with the vaping epidemic issue and Tiktok’s together just, it’s a mess. Okay.
[00:35:49] Evan Francen: Uh, to dig a little deeper because I didn’t know about Tiktok and I know that she uses it. I don’t think she creates videos per se, but watches a lot of videos.
[00:35:59] Zoe Bundy: Not all things are bad if you censor it. Yeah.
[00:36:02] Evan Francen: Yeah, I agree. It’s like, it’s like everything in technology, right? I mean, it’s got a good use and a bad use if you use it for the good, but it’s so easy for the bad to creep in, especially if you’re not watching
[00:36:13] Brad Nigh: and, and then you’re relying on a third party to censor and do the right thing and there they’re going to look for what’s going to make the money,
[00:36:22] Evan Francen: not the chinese application to, right?
[00:36:24] Brad Nigh: So there’s, um,
[00:36:26] Zoe Bundy: yes, it was first, it’s not anymore. I think the people that own musically when musically was a thing they bought out to talk or musically take talk about out musically and made it their up. Okay.
[00:36:44] Brad Nigh: Yeah, there’s, there’s some privacy concerns for sure. So I guess we’ll go back in and try and get back on track a little bit. This is great conversation, but I want to make sure we hit all of our talking points here because I mean this is great. But um, so going back, do you recruit girls into stem? Do you like actively go out and say you should do this or just talk and listen.
[00:37:10] Zoe Bundy: Yeah, um, both ways. So when I talked to the elementary kids and get their ideas and hear what they have to say, that’s where some of that comes in like you guys can be what you want. There’s no, this career is for guys now in some cases there are careers where it’s like, well literally only a guy should do this job. We had this discussion last year when I was writing a paper on literally guys careers versus girls careers and what are the stigmas around them. And so part of it is, yes, I recruit girls instead. I go to the Air museum. I share, I share at school when I have um, in my marketing class, I teach the class on Fridays. So, oh, I’m sure then and yeah, I recruit girls in the stem and then at other points I listen to hear what they have to say and see how we can implement those ideas around the community and get them the connections that they need.
[00:38:14] Brad Nigh: So other than going to brainy ladies dot net, what, where should girls that are interested in stem go where, what resources are out there for somebody who’s, maybe I want to do this or I want to learn more about it.
[00:38:29] Zoe Bundy: So there’s a lot of different resources based on the career. One of my absolute favorites is just to explore is engineer girl dot org and it’s this amazing website where they have online mentors, so you can literally just connect with one of their engineers. It’s from the National Academy of Engineering, which puts it on, you can ask an engineer questions day in the life interviews, stories, things like that and it’s a really cool website to get involved. They have the club pages. So if you have um if you live in Wisconsin then they have clubs for you in Wisconsin and just other places and they have different contests too about writing and preparing for college, things like that.
[00:39:15] Evan Francen: Cool. Say that website, one more time
[00:39:18] Zoe Bundy: engineer girl dot org, awesome.
[00:39:21] Evan Francen: I love your, I love your idea or your, your theory uh mission of, you know, just to help one person, help somebody, you know, reach out, ask, encourage walk alongside, you know, show them the ropes, that’s so important and it doesn’t and that’s not just a girl thing or just or a guy thing, it’s an everybody thing. Mhm So it’s great advice is very wise For 15 years old again, very impressed.
[00:39:54] Brad Nigh: Very,
[00:39:56] Evan Francen: I’ve met people four times your age that I can’t give advice like that.
[00:40:01] Brad Nigh: Okay. Say a question. If I must put together is she is sometimes, oh no, you’re not Okay. Good. Uh No, I’m not. All right. Uh so if there was one thing you’d like listeners to know about girls in stem, what is it?
[00:40:21] Zoe Bundy: Okay. I think that like something to know or something to do.
[00:40:33] Evan Francen: I just think it’s just something about the
[00:40:35] Brad Nigh: topic. Yeah. About girls in stem in general.
[00:40:39] Zoe Bundy: So there’s 24% of some workforces, women. Mm And that’s, it’s a weird statistics to think about, like that’s about 1/4 of the same workforce. So there’s that and also stem is like growing really fast. So it’s crazy to think we have a brand new tech academy in Fargo. And do we have any women going into those careers because their crews that need to be filled. Right? And there’s 24% of the stem workforce is women. So if you have an interest in those careers, I think you should go for it or at least explore because you don’t have to say, yeah, I’m gonna go into a stem career and then walk in the first day and hate it. Like don’t do that. If you, if you want to try it, go for it. But if it’s not your thing, don’t sweat it,
[00:41:28] Evan Francen: okay, that’s good advice too. So, and I think girls everywhere, you know, I mean, listeners, if you have daughters, uh or sisters or even mothers, you know, uh bring this up as a topic. I mean, because when people walk alongside me, when people actually know me, they know what, it’s probably good for me. You know, I mean, they can mention things like, hey, you know, I noticed that your really good with numbers, you know, have you thought about taking a look at this career or that career encouraging them giving them the option that this is because the opportunities are like, Zoe is saying there are so many jobs
[00:42:10] Brad Nigh: and not just Yeah, across the spectrum, there’s not just one, you’re not just in computers, there’s a
[00:42:17] Evan Francen: huge right? Yeah. And the opportunities are for everybody, right? Unless you’re not built for it. Some people just aren’t built for it. You know, some people are artists, some people are garbage collectors, some people are engineers. I mean, no one job is better or worse than the other. It’s just what do you build for
[00:42:35] Brad Nigh: right now? I guess best advice there would be if you’re interested, don’t be afraid, regardless of who you are, Go for it. Mhm.
[00:42:43] Evan Francen: And find and find support.
[00:42:46] Zoe Bundy: Yeah. There’s this quote that I absolutely love. And it’s a person who knows their own worth is not afraid to eat alone. and it’s basically the same in career exploration if you know that you’re good for the job and that, that’s something you’re interested. Don’t be afraid to walk in and sit at the table and show up the people there, you know, as long as you’re there and you show up to the job, go for it
[00:43:13] Evan Francen: when, and that’s coming from somebody who’s done it right? I mean, Zoe you, you’ve done it, you’ve done it multiple times. You’ve walked into these clubs where you’re the only girl or you’re one of two girls in the club. So that’s great advice from somebody who actually walked that walk.
[00:43:31] Zoe Bundy: I don’t know. Yeah, I think the best thing though too, is to think about what is actually the worst that could happen. They tell, you know, okay, you move on. Like really truly, what is the worst that could happen?
[00:43:45] Brad Nigh: That’s so good. I love hearing. That’s what I told my daughters all the time. Go for. What’s the worst they say no and go, all right, well, fine. I’ll do something else. Right, move on. So that’s good to hear. Uh, last question for you.
[00:44:00] Evan Francen: One thing that I learned from this is I’m getting a band saw in my bedroom. Hey? Yeah, I’m gonna talk to my wife about that tonight or should I just not even talk? I’ll just start
[00:44:11] Zoe Bundy: with, hey, go for it. What’s the worst that could happen? I like it.
[00:44:19] Brad Nigh: Yeah. So, so she won’t be listening to this one either. My
[00:44:25] Evan Francen: wife.
[00:44:25] Brad Nigh: Uh, so last question for you, if there’s one thing you’d like our listeners to help you with, what would it be?
[00:44:35] Evan Francen: Yeah, somebody’s, somebody’s got to support, somebody’s got to support. So you’ve been such a support, I think to so many other people, what can we do to support you? Would you like,
[00:44:45] Zoe Bundy: let’s see, I think just get the word out. I don’t know if that counts for me, but share your story. If you have a story, if you have a story, then it’s worth sharing because all stories are worth sharing.
[00:45:01] Brad Nigh: I think that says a lot about you, that that’s your answer. So that’s a great
[00:45:05] Evan Francen: answer. What such a, you have such a servant, you know, mentality to where it’s like, hey, what can I do for you? Well actually can do it for other people and I’ll be served that way. That’s cool.
[00:45:16] Zoe Bundy: If you are, if you have somebody that, you know email me and we’ll connect.
[00:45:22] Evan Francen: Well I know that to Zoe, this is uh, you know, and this is on the podcast. Um, if you do need something, if you do need some help, if you do need uh, you know, whatever, reach out, reach out to me, reach out to brad, reach out to, uh, you know, whoever you’ve got to, you’ve got a big support network here. Cool.
[00:45:42] Brad Nigh: Alright. So tons of opportunities for girls to get into stem, stem is not for everyone, but it’s for everyone who’s got an interest, so plenty of opportunity and this is thanksgiving week. So we’ve all got a lot to be thankful for this year, starting with you, Zoe, what’s one thing you’re particularly thankful for this year
[00:46:03] Zoe Bundy: opportunity because opportunities are amazing and the support system that I have right now has helped me get opportunities this year, especially in just exploring different careers or speaking or things like that. So I think opportunity in the support system that’s built right now,
[00:46:25] Brad Nigh: it’s cool, we’re good. All right, Evan, what about you? One thing you’re thankful for?
[00:46:30] Evan Francen: Well, you know, my faith is very big for me, so obviously, you know, jesus and you know, him being the ceo and leading me is a big thing, but uh my wife, you know, she, my wife puts up with a lot, you know, I’m on the road a lot and working a lot uh, without her, without her support, I wouldn’t be half the places I’ve been. So I would say my wife,
[00:46:55] Brad Nigh: that’s good, Yeah, you know, personally a family, you know, my wife and kids are really good and my daughters are amazing helping with uh our son, getting him ready for school and just being great with, we joked that he’s got, you know, three moms, so just having the family and then, you know, from a professional standpoint and that kind of uh, if the trust from an opportunity from uh, ownership and executive leadership to kinda, mm, do our thing and not be micromanaged. So it’s a great opportunity to kind of stretch our wings as it were. That’s cool.
[00:47:35] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s the thing about thanksgiving, right? So take some time this week. You know, we’re all running fast. There’s so many things, I mean, Zoe mentioned so many things going on on the phone, social media. I mean Youtube, just so many things going on in people’s lives. Take a minute, take 10 minutes, take a day and truly be thankful for something because we all have something, even when you’re in the bottom of the bottom, there’s still something right? There’s still breath in your lungs. Uh, you know, just do that. This, this uh, this thanksgiving.
[00:48:10] Brad Nigh: All right. So we’re going to change things up a little bit in the show. Starting the first of the year. We’re going to devote 10 minutes or so to each show to anyone looking for a job in information security. So you can email us at un security of proton mail dot com some time before the next episode. And we’ll respond to you on a first come first serve basis. If you’re chosen and the time works, we’ll invite you on the show to learn about you. You can think of this as just a quick, you know, 10 minute interview.
[00:48:41] Evan Francen: Yeah, 10 minute pitch, people can get to know you a little bit.
[00:48:44] Brad Nigh: Yeah. So working out kinks between now and then, uh, between now and the time we kick it off, but we’ll have a standard format defined. So kind of, instead of doing the news, I think we’ll still probably do some news stories linked in the post, but probably not talk about them nearly as much kind of replacing the news. Everybody does the news. So
[00:49:05] Evan Francen: that’s true. Well, this was, this was an idea that came from john harmon when I told him about our show last week, when we had ken Bechtel, you know, on the, on the show, this is a guy with, you know, gobs and gobs of experience and he couldn’t find a job and we’re told all the time that we have this shortage of talent in our industry or shortage of Yeah, to fill these open positions. It’s like, well, why can’t can’t find a job? And I’m happy. Very, very happy to report that ken got an offer last week. Didn’t come from our show. He already, you know, that just happened.
[00:49:36] Brad Nigh: No, it totally came from marshall. I know it’d be
[00:49:38] Evan Francen: Great to take credit, but that’s not how it worked. Uh, but my heart goes out to people that are struggling trying to find a job, you know, so let’s give them a forum to catch for 10 minutes and you know, if there’s nobody who takes us up on the offer. Well then great, the offer still stands.
[00:49:53] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Well, and I think it’ll be good to because we talked about this and sometimes it takes a little self reflection. So maybe getting on and hearing some, some feedback from other people makes you realize, oh wait, maybe I’m not presenting myself in a way that I should
[00:50:09] Evan Francen: Or should not all that. Maybe I’m not worth $400,000.
[00:50:12] Brad Nigh: Right? Yeah. So here’s that too. If you’re looking for a job, use this to help get the word out. Stay tuned. We’ll mention this a few more times before we make this change official. So that’ll be good. I think that’ll be fun to uh
[00:50:24] Evan Francen: first of the year. And if you want to start sending us emails now, hopefully you’ll find a job between now and first of the year, but get in line. Let’s do this. So
[00:50:34] Brad Nigh: All right, so onto some news real quick. Always lots of news to choose from. But couple of stories security affairs dot C. O. Personal social information of 1.28 billion people exposed on open elasticsearch? Uh install. Uh at what point do um some of these services like software, you gotta put some security by default. You shouldn’t, why is it wide open instead of like locked down to start with?
[00:51:08] Evan Francen: Well, the things that are really interesting about this one is this is just plain old sloppy. Right? You’ve got names, email addresses, phone numbers linked in facebook profile information. Uh and it was just a dumping ground. Right? So it’s easier to do without authentication.
[00:51:24] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I know. But the
[00:51:26] Evan Francen: thing that’s really interesting though is that there’s no attribution. Nobody knows who’s who at least at the time of this article that were, you know, security affairs, who’s to blame.
[00:51:38] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Uh I’m still kind of like the last thing we keep hearing about elasticsearch and some of those other ones, they were going to have to put some security and by default and force you to open it up rather than just like wide open and hoping people can figure it properly.
[00:51:55] Evan Francen: But people will still I mean, you’re still going to rely on people. Right? So they’re still going to find their work around there. What security protections you put in place as the default. They’re just going to undo
[00:52:06] Brad Nigh: then they have to but they’ve had actively undo it.
[00:52:11] Evan Francen: Yeah, but it’s still going to
[00:52:12] Brad Nigh: happen. Well, yeah, but then at least you can say, well, you did it.
[00:52:16] Evan Francen: I mean, thank God because of this. The researcher who found this data, um we don’t know if it’s been expecting anywhere else, but you know, if it’s been sitting there. I’m sure it was found by somebody crazy.
[00:52:29] Brad Nigh: All right.
[00:52:30] Evan Francen: So 1.2 billion. How many billion people are there in the world? eight
[00:52:36] Brad Nigh: seven or 8 or something. So yeah, I mean, our information is already all out there anyway. It doesn’t really.
[00:52:44] Evan Francen: Right.
[00:52:47] Brad Nigh: Frustrating.
[00:52:48] Evan Francen: Uh thank God. It wasn’t like Social Security numbers and other stuff. I mean names, email addresses, I can use that for fishing. Right. Make you know, targeted phishing attacks.
[00:52:58] Brad Nigh: And wasn’t there you said facebook info and stuff. So are they going to be
[00:53:06] Evan Francen: Well, here’s tips for listeners, Right. two Factor authentication everywhere. Right. Never give out sensitive information from any communication medium that you didn’t initiate. Right? So if I get an email that’s asking for some sort of sensitive information, you never give it unless you initiated the conversation to begin with. Absolutely.
[00:53:28] Brad Nigh: Alright. Second story. Um also have security affairs Iran government blocks internet access in response to protests. Uh just I think we’ll start seeing this more and more basically there’s some protests after they were gonna cut some fuel subsidies and so they stop the internet to prevent the spread of information.
[00:53:49] Evan Francen: Oppressive governments scary. Well, oppressive governments oppress. Right. Right.
[00:53:54] Brad Nigh: And then the last one Pavel Durov, the founder of telegram advised users to remove WhatsApp from smartphones. This is off of e hacking news and uh you know, shockingly that a facebook owned subsidiary or whatever. However, that’s integrated is having privacy and security issues. I’m stunned.
[00:54:21] Evan Francen: Who use what you use WhatsApp? Do you use WhatsApp? Zoe do you use WhatsApp?
[00:54:27] Zoe Bundy: I’ve never used WhatsApp.
[00:54:29] Evan Francen: Do any of your, any of the gent’s ears that you know of. Do they use WhatsApp?
[00:54:35] Zoe Bundy: I’ve never even heard like I’ve heard of WhatsApp, but I couldn’t tell you like anything about it? I don’t think so.
[00:54:42] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it was supposed to be a secure messaging platform. So facebook had bought it too. Kind of better there, uh security posture. And now what’s up, not only does not protect your messages, but this app is constantly being used as a trojan to track photos and messages unrelated to messenger. According to Durov is a policy of facebook which owns at WhatsApp,
[00:55:12] Evan Francen: Is there any uh, there’s no mention in this article. How many users of WhatsApp
[00:55:18] Brad Nigh: there are? Yeah, there’s quite a few
[00:55:21] Evan Francen: because I don’t use WhatsApp either. No,
[00:55:24] Brad Nigh: no, I’ve used telegram seems pretty good. And I’ve used wire for secure communication for with family and stuff. So,
[00:55:33] Evan Francen: so pavel Durov, he also created telegram. Messenger. Never used that. You
[00:55:39] Brad Nigh: have. Okay. Yeah, it seems pretty good.
[00:55:42] Evan Francen: I still think, okay,
[00:55:44] Brad Nigh: yeah, there were there were governments trying to crack down on it because it was so it was secure and they thought that terrorists were using it and they couldn’t tell what was going on. So anyway, fun
[00:55:58] Evan Francen: times. So, well, what’s the moral of story there. So if you’re going to use an application on your phone, whatever application and this, it doesn’t matter if it’s on your phone, like on your phone, on your tablets, on your laptops, on anything if you can use any application or what it’s doing, You know what it’s doing, Make sure that what it’s doing is something that you actually need and then keep up to date with.
[00:56:22] Brad Nigh: Well, and I understand if you’re if it’s free, you’re the product.
[00:56:26] Evan Francen: Yeah, Yeah. There you go. Nothing’s free. All right.
[00:56:31] Brad Nigh: Uh huh. So 55 episode 55 that is is a wrap. Thank you again to Zoe Bundy and from brainy ladies for joining us. Very excited to keep up with what she’s doing.
[00:56:42] Evan Francen: Thank you. Thank you Zoe.
[00:56:43] Zoe Bundy: Thanks for having me. This is amazing.
[00:56:46] Evan Francen: Well, you’re you’re amazing but thank
[00:56:49] Brad Nigh: you. Uh thank you to our listeners. Keep the questions and feedback coming. We’re a little behind responding right now. Evans been traveling have been just slumped on, barely keeping up with day to day here. So I apologize. We will get caught up. We love the feedback. Send us things by email at insecurity at proton mail dot com via the social type socialize with us on twitter. I’m @BradNigh and I and Evan is @EvanFrancen Zoe. How do you want people to socialize with you
[00:57:19] Zoe Bundy: email me or instagram message me at stem brainy ladies and then my emails Hello@girlsinstemmagazine.com.