Unsecurity Podcast

Episode 88 is part 5 of the UNSECURITY Podcast’s Women in Security series. In this week’s show, Evan and Brad interview Andrea Hatcher. Andrea is a senior majoring in Cybersecurity Analytics and Operations at Pennsylvania State University, and the guys chat with her about why she chose this path, her school’s program, challenges, advice, and more.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:22] Evan Francen: Hey there. Thanks for joining us for episode 88 of the un security podcast. Today is july 13th 2020 and I’m your host, Evan Francen. I’m joined by my good friend. I called you a good friend and coworker Brad Nigh. Good morning brad.

[00:00:38] Brad Nigh: Good morning. Everyone.

[00:00:40] Evan Francen: You don’t seem as cheery this morning as normal.

[00:00:41] Brad Nigh: No, no, I’m mentioning I was up with a kid who had a nightmare for a good portion of the night. So heaven it didn’t yet.

[00:00:50] Evan Francen: Do you ever have nightmares?

[00:00:54] Brad Nigh: I couldn’t I don’t know when the last time I woke up with like a like a nightmare. I don’t know.

[00:00:59] Evan Francen: Yeah, I don’t know either. And all right, well today we’re doing part five of the women in security series and I’m excited to welcome our guest. She’s a senior At 10 State University majoring in cyber security analytics and operations. And her name is Andrea Hatcher. Welcome Andrea.

[00:01:17] Andrea Hatcher: Good morning. Thank you for having me. I’m very excited,

[00:01:21] Evan Francen: humor, cheery than we are.

[00:01:22] Andrea Hatcher: I’m very used to getting up early and around here. It’s only eight AM so got some time to wake up.

[00:01:31] Evan Francen: I’m not sharing what time I got up. All right, well I’m especially excited for today’s show for a couple reasons one because Andrea is just beginning her career. Uh you know her career journey anyway. Uh We get to play a small part of it, you know just being you know being able to talk to you. I think it’s kind of cool. Hopefully create some memories just in this hour together. Um And to Andrea is a fan of the show, fans of the show, of the best fans in my opinion. Um Many thanks for agreeing again to the podcast. Andrea

[00:02:09] Andrea Hatcher: thank you again for having me. I’m super excited. I listen to the podcast every week, usually well doing my programming for class and so far I’ve learned a lot from listening to it.

[00:02:20] Evan Francen: Awesome. Well this is just the start of a kind of a thing. That’s cool. Alright, so first things first before we get too deep, we gotta check in brad how you doing? Good,

[00:02:31] Brad Nigh: good overall, nice overall, nice weekend. We had some storms come through saturday afternoon, ruin my plans for smoking. So I’ll be smoking my uh for uh the bone and shoulder roast this afternoon. How much time

[00:02:46] Evan Francen: you’re going to bring it in?

[00:02:48] Brad Nigh: It’s on the way home. It’ll be done about six.

[00:02:52] Andrea Hatcher: Do you want to send some to penn state?

[00:02:54] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I don’t know how that would ship

[00:02:57] Evan Francen: but they can ship that. They vacuum seal it or something. Yeah. All right, so you have a good weekend. You avoided the rain. Did you? Uh do you ride your bike?

[00:03:09] Brad Nigh: I did Okay, a little little bit of that in just a lot of time with the kids, uh, just playing games and having fun and got outside yesterday with them and spend a couple hours. Yeah, nice day. So it’s good weather kind of broke. It wasn’t, you know, oppressively hot and humid. So it was nice.

[00:03:31] Evan Francen: Yeah, tell me about it. I got like 300 miles in maybe. Oh, nice on my bike when I’m friday night, went on kind of a date night with my wife, uh, found a place that we’ve never been to before. So we rode the motorcycle there and had uh, dinner and then we rode to another place way up and suck rapid sucks center socks something. Do you know where that is? Yeah. Ok. Yeah. Right up there was like 70 miles there and 70 miles back. And then yesterday we met up with Tony. No, Tony. Yeah. You had to call with Tony.

[00:04:09] Brad Nigh: I had a call with Tony. It was actually a really good call with Tony.

[00:04:13] Evan Francen: Good. Well, he’s a listener, so I’m sure he’ll,

[00:04:16] Brad Nigh: it was, it was very helpful. I do appreciate what he had to say.

[00:04:21] Evan Francen: Yeah, it was me, my wife, Tony, his wife bobby, his wife and then Corey tram. Do you know Corey tram? No,

[00:04:32] Brad Nigh: that name sounds really familiar.

[00:04:34] Evan Francen: Looks at source. Well,

[00:04:37] Brad Nigh: so I think I don’t think I met him. I may have been on a call with him or something or be mailed with him. I don’t think I met him though.

[00:04:44] Evan Francen: Okay well yesterday it was all four couples writing so it was fun in a little biker gang. Let me hit me up on twitter twitter said we should start a hacker motorcycle club.

[00:05:00] Brad Nigh: You got to come up with some really geeky like name that nobody gets. Yeah.

[00:05:06] Evan Francen: So how about you? Andrea how was your weekend?

[00:05:10] Andrea Hatcher: It was pretty good. I came back up to state college and moved a bunch of stuff back into my apartment. So that kept me very busy. I saw Hamilton on Disney plus this weekend for the first time. Which it was it was very good.

[00:05:25] Evan Francen: It wasn’t.

[00:05:26] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah I wouldn’t recommend it. There’s no talking but very historical and I love history so I enjoyed it a lot.

[00:05:35] Evan Francen: That’s cool.

[00:05:36] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah and then I did a lot of work on a certification I’m currently working on. So it was a busy weekend.

[00:05:45] Evan Francen: Cool. What certification?

[00:05:47] Andrea Hatcher: I’m working on the comp Tia security plus certification.

[00:05:51] Evan Francen: Good for you And how’s it going so far?

[00:05:55] Andrea Hatcher: It’s a lot of work. A lot of information but I’m enjoying it a lot and I’m learning a lot. So it’s worth the price tag. Yeah definitely.

[00:06:06] Evan Francen: So the so you said you moved up to Happy Valley. Yeah

[00:06:12] Andrea Hatcher: we call it Happy Valley but the actual town is known as state

[00:06:15] Evan Francen: college. And how far away from state college do you live? Like how

[00:06:20] Andrea Hatcher: far? Yeah so I live just outside of Washington D. C. In northern Virginia. So it’s about a 3.5 4 hour drive. So it’s not too bad

[00:06:30] Brad Nigh: for my heart. My place. I grew up in Fairfax

[00:06:33] Andrea Hatcher: really

[00:06:34] Brad Nigh: wearing Fairfax alexandria actually, right in the old town in Mount vernon.

[00:06:40] Andrea Hatcher: Really? I grew up in like spring, I lived and grew up in

[00:06:43] Brad Nigh: Springfield Atomic. So

[00:06:46] Andrea Hatcher: yeah the traffic is

[00:06:48] Brad Nigh: awful. It all cool.

[00:06:52] Evan Francen: That is cool. All right, well uh got anything, you guys are excited about anything coming up, we’re going to take your task. Uh

[00:07:00] Andrea Hatcher: I take it two weeks before classes start. So at the end of august very cool.

[00:07:07] Evan Francen: Do you need any help?

[00:07:08] Andrea Hatcher: Not yet, but I’ll let you know if I do

[00:07:11] Evan Francen: okay because brad from rumor has it brad’s up early every morning?

[00:07:16] Brad Nigh: Yeah.

[00:07:19] Evan Francen: Yeah. That’s cool, I’m excited about that. The uh yeah that’s a good good exam. It’s a good place you know, as you progress in your career. So

[00:07:29] Brad Nigh: really good. Starting starting point.

[00:07:32] Andrea Hatcher: Thank you very much.

[00:07:34] Evan Francen: Yeah. Are you excited about anything this

[00:07:36] Brad Nigh: week? I am sands is having their uh D. F. I. R. Summit free on thursday and friday. So I’ve got I’m excited for a bunch of talks and some learning some new stuff on the I. R. Infringe of uh sort of things

[00:07:55] Evan Francen: whose teaching that

[00:07:56] Brad Nigh: you know it’s a it’s like a whole bunch of different classes or like tracks I guess.

[00:08:04] Evan Francen: Okay is uh jake Williams.

[00:08:06] Brad Nigh: Uh

[00:08:09] Evan Francen: now we’re jake. All right,

[00:08:12] Brad Nigh: let’s see. Uh huh.

[00:08:14] Evan Francen: I don’t know what I’m doing this week. Mhm. Uh huh. Survive. We’ll try to survive this week. Yeah. All right, well, good. Let’s get to it. Part five of the women in security series and each week just gets better and better. What have you thought so far bread?

[00:08:33] Brad Nigh: This has been great. Mm I don’t know. It’s just really interesting to hear the experiences and perspectives.

[00:08:43] Evan Francen: It is, isn’t it 11 of the things I’ve always kind of struggled, you know, and I wrote it in chapter 10 of insecurity, the book the shortage of women in our industry. And I think at the time the best study I could find was 11% of our industry was female. Which is you know, kind of the same in I. T. You know, some people were justifying, you know, I’ve had a lot of discussions about that, that being an issue and some people don’t see it as a problem. Yeah. You know, it’s the same as it. And I even had one guy who said, well what’s the percentage of women that are garbage collectors, but this was somebody from the other side of the pond. So we call them they call it something else like refuse or whatever they call it over there. But anyway uh we do you know in my opinion, we do have a shortage of women in our industry, you know, I’ve been to enough conferences brad you and I’ve been in this industry for a long time.

[00:09:40] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Well, which is funny because I don’t know if you saw last night on twitter, I actually was active, which is rare,

[00:09:48] Evan Francen: but we did

[00:09:50] Brad Nigh: just Dotson was making a comment about that. It’s kind of interesting right at the, you know, with the timing of it. I was like, yeah, no, come on.

[00:09:59] Evan Francen: What was, what was, what was she saying? It

[00:10:01] Brad Nigh: was, hold on. She said nothing quite like being ignored, being ignored one in the room and being made to feel like your skills aren’t of any use. Ladies in tech in particular. Ladies of an infamous or in cybersec Is this something we just have to get used to? No, it shouldn’t be. It should be a lot the industry if you have

[00:10:24] Evan Francen: to write. All right. Well, the purpose behind this series is to bring to light the unique experiences, perspectives, and opinions of women in our industry, in the hopes of making the path smoother and we’re inviting for others. You know, one of the every I mean, I guess it depends on who you talk to every week. It’s been my favorite week. Uh but one that stands out is, you know, Laurie, Who, you know, what was that week? two or two of the series where she 1985 she started in this industry Andrea were you born in 1985 yet?

[00:11:00] Andrea Hatcher: Sure. No. So I’m turning 21 in July. So I was born in 99. So I wasn’t even alive and I don’t even think I was an image in my parent’s mind at that point.

[00:11:13] Evan Francen: Holy crap, I’m getting old this I’m gonna make it to half a century pretty soon. B 50 perry 40th.

[00:11:25] Brad Nigh: Yes. Yeah. 43.

[00:11:28] Evan Francen: Yes.

[00:11:29] Brad Nigh: Yes. I don’t wanna talk about it.

[00:11:31] Evan Francen: All right. Uh So we’re doing this uh we’re doing this series by inviting women as guests of our show so they can share with us. I think if brad if it was you and I talking about women indeed in information security. It’s just it’s not the same. No, I don’t know what it’s like to be woman, I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman in this industry. Uh So we purposely chose women at various stages of their career. Uh And in various roles. So you you know, if you’ve seen the guests that we had so far, we’ve had Renee who you know, isn’t really a security practitioner, jesus boatloads of of its leadership experience and leads a team of information security analysts today, Then I first here then he got Lori 1985 and then we had Victoria But maybe two years. Not

[00:12:25] Brad Nigh: Even coming up on two years, year and a half.

[00:12:28] Evan Francen: Yeah and she’s a career changer. She came, you know insurance adjuster. She hated. And then um christian judge last week she’s pretty amazing. Yeah and now you’re good

[00:12:43] Andrea Hatcher: now I’m here not as great of a resume as as other fantastic inspiring women but

[00:12:51] Evan Francen: well no I mean it it’s amazing whenever I talk to somebody who’s you know just kind of prepping to get into the industry, it brings me back, it reminds me of those days because for me it was a long time ago too. Uh And things are so fresh and so new and just like when you figure something out how to things kind of work holy crap look at me, you know what I mean? Are you are you having those experiences those like uh huh.

[00:13:23] Andrea Hatcher: Oh every day. I mean right now is one of those experiences

[00:13:30] Evan Francen: brad. Do you have any of those experiences anymore?

[00:13:32] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah. You know I’ve been doing like the capture the flag stuff and I haven’t done programming or coding for way long time doing some like reverse engineering. So yeah kind of challenge yourself and me get it. It’s like thank you.

[00:13:49] Evan Francen: Yeah so um it’s cool to get the perspectives. It’s cool to get, you know it’s better learning certainly for me I’ve learned things I think a couple of epiphanies for me in in in the series so far um Andrea is here uh and things that will cover you know I don’t know truly if we do have a shortage of women in this industry. I think we do. It seems like we do, but you know, I don’t know we can, we can talk about that and if we do have a shortage of women like I said before, some people don’t think it’s a big deal. I mean I don’t know we can talk about that too. So let’s start with you Andrea what got you into this? I mean what, tell me how you got here.

[00:14:35] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, so my journey is a little twisty. It wasn’t a very straight path for me. So I started getting interested in stem my junior year of high school, I joined a robotics team. I’m not sure if you guys are familiar with the organization 1st, 1st robotics. So I did that and it made me think I wanted to be an engineer, applied to Penn state as an engineer got in, did not like engineering, realized it was not for me. So I, what I did was I knew I was looking for something that I could do either intelligence work or national security and I wanted to stay in step and I especially want a career that wasn’t stagnant because I love learning. So I wanted to be a lifelong learner and I wanted a career that would facilitate that. So what I did was I went on the penn state website and basically just looked at a bunch of majors and thought cybersecurity sounded really interesting. I took a chance and took an introduction to information security class and fell in love and the rest is history.

[00:15:46] Evan Francen: That’s cool. So how, how long ago is that?

[00:15:49] Andrea Hatcher: So that was, I started cybersecurity my sophomore year. So that was about two years ago. Okay,

[00:15:56] Evan Francen: so two years in, you haven’t run for the hills yet? No, I haven’t. I think this might be a thing bread.

[00:16:03] Brad Nigh: You’re stuck. Why don’t you get

[00:16:05] Andrea Hatcher: way Yeah, it seems that way

[00:16:09] Evan Francen: you’re going to have to grow a beard way.

[00:16:12] Andrea Hatcher: I mean I can always wrap my hair around in it.

[00:16:16] Evan Francen: That’s true and I may put it up here. Yeah, Well that’s cool. So uh, yeah, so you were going to be an engineering student and then uh, and you just kind of looked at things on the, you didn’t like engineering more. So he looked at things, you know, kind of on the class schedule and said, oh, intraday information security or you took that and then that was it.

[00:16:41] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah. So I also have done some research online about cybersecurity and saw how much of a growing field it was and how much of a demand there was for it. Um, and that really interested me and one of the things I did know about prior going into the major was things are constantly changing. So you always have to stay updated and that’s something I really like about it is, again, it’s not stagnant, I can’t really get bored because attacks are always changing defenses are always changing. So

[00:17:14] Evan Francen: so you can hold,

[00:17:15] Brad Nigh: you

[00:17:17] Evan Francen: can bubble anymore,

[00:17:19] Brad Nigh: that’s when you transition into that sea level

[00:17:22] Evan Francen: role. Yeah, that’s when you become management. Yeah. You get lots of respect as you had a lot of lots of credit back in the day. They’re like, oh yeah, you’re you’re not good anymore. But we’re all right, so how soon do you graduate?

[00:17:40] Andrea Hatcher: So I am taking an extra semester just because I did spend a year in engineering. So I’ll be graduating december of 2021. So it’s coming up soon and I’m not really ready to graduate. I’m not really ready to fully adult. But yeah.

[00:17:57] Evan Francen: Yeah, I don’t think so hard sometimes. I mean I I still don’t an adult. Do you bread?

[00:18:02] Brad Nigh: Oh God, no. Uh huh.

[00:18:05] Evan Francen: No, my wife thank God for her because

[00:18:10] Brad Nigh: so having done what what what what are the classes around like subject matter? What’s the breakdown too? Technical is a governance. How does that work?

[00:18:22] Andrea Hatcher: Right. So it’s important to note that I’m going to be only the second class at Penn State who will graduate with a degree in cybersecurity analytics and operations. So it’s a very very new program. It was, it used to be a part of a security risk analysis program, but they realized how much of a need for there was and created an own program. So curriculums are pretty much always changing. Um there’s not really a set curriculum yet, if that makes sense. And as for your question about whether it’s policy or technical, it’s a mixture of both. So like this year I’m taking a malware analytics class. Um, so, and then we are also required to take technical writing and were required to take some security risk analysis classes. So it’s, it’s a pretty good mixture of both.

[00:19:12] Evan Francen: That’s cool. It’s nice that it’s as broad as that is, especially being in telling, you know, only the second year at Penn state, what part do you like? Do you have a part that you like the most?

[00:19:27] Andrea Hatcher: Yes. So I’m very interested in kind of the intelligence side of things. Um unlike a lot of my peers, I’m very interested in defense. So most of my peers really want to do red team. So offensive stuff and I think blue team is really cool. Um so that’s what I like the most. I have really enjoyed um my programming classes, I really enjoy programming and programming against attacks, so I still have a lot to learn. Um there are definitely classes that are coming up I’m very excited about. So, but on top of that I’m also doing a lot of my own research outside the class. So I’m obviously taking this commentary certification and then I go online do linkedin courses to pretty much grab any information I can to learn as much as I can.

[00:20:24] Evan Francen: Yeah, well, good that’s going to, I mean that that’s how it works. You never, you never stop learning. All right. Any given. I mean, I I’m not a hacker anymore and I’m quoting something this morning when I was courting a a news aggregator. You know, I want to pull all the news feeds and start doing threat intelligence out of the news feeds. I don’t know why. I just, you know what? Uh so you you mentioned that there’s a class that you’re, look, that’s coming up that you’re really looking forward to. Which one is that?

[00:21:01] Andrea Hatcher: Um, so we have something called a capstone, which is kind of your, your final presentation of everything you’ve learned at penn state. Um, and they give you an open ended question and you’re put with the group and you have to work together on it. Uh, so that’s something I’m very excited to do. Um, there’s a penetration testing class that I’m excited to do. I’m not so much looking forward to my technical writing, but it’s something I have to do.

[00:21:33] Brad Nigh: Well, yeah, just so, you know, I mean, and I’ve both said it, but 2/3 of what you do is writing, so get used to it. It’s definitely not the most fun, but

[00:21:45] Andrea Hatcher: it’s a necessary evil,

[00:21:47] Evan Francen: even in pen testing, I mean, a pen test is great, but if you if if nobody can understand the report that you wrote. That’s true, who cares? Right. I mean, you know how you did your, you know how your attack played out? Uh Yeah, that that technical writing, it’s funny because I don’t know about you, but when I was younger, when I was probably Andrews age, I hated writing reports to,

[00:22:12] Brad Nigh: I don’t really write down,

[00:22:14] Evan Francen: do you? Really?

[00:22:15] Brad Nigh: No, not really.

[00:22:16] Evan Francen: Okay. Actually enjoy writing airports.

[00:22:18] Brad Nigh: Yeah, no, it’s not too bad. Once you get into the flow of it and understand and you know, get a, get a style, not too bad.

[00:22:28] Evan Francen: And do you have a tell me about you have an internship coming up, don’t you?

[00:22:33] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, I can’t talk too much about it just because of the nature of it, but I’m currently doing cybersecurity project management because one of the things that I’m, I want to do in cybersecurity is kind of more on the management side. I have noticed that I have an affinity for communication more so than some of my other peers just because of how I grow up, I feel like I can communicate better and I feel like I would be really good in that role, so I’m really enjoying it. I’m learning a lot. It’s been that so

[00:23:06] Evan Francen: far it’s cool. Yeah, I’m sure you’ll I have no doubt you’ll succeed.

[00:23:12] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, and it’s been nice because I have been able to do it remotely, which I’m very lucky because so many college students, not only in um our college, which is the College of Information Science and Technology, but all the majors and colleges have unfortunately lost their internships because of this pandemic.

[00:23:35] Evan Francen: Now an internship is that required for.

[00:23:37] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah. Yeah so we are required to take an internship class. I’m not sure about the other colleges at Penn State but in the college of I. S. T. We are we are required to have 300 hours and then we take a class alongside that which includes things like diversity engagement, communication with your other peers. So it’s not a hard class but they push it hard at Penn State to have an internship, they feel it’s really important and I happen to agree

[00:24:08] Evan Francen: that’s cool how big how big your classes? So depending on the media

[00:24:15] Andrea Hatcher: so because it’s so new There’s not a ton of the college of IST was only created in 1999, so the year I was born. So it’s still a very fairly small college, we pretty much only occupation half of the building. But depending your cybersecurity Specific classes can only be about maybe 25-30 people. But you know your general education courses, I’ve had classes of 400 300 or 400. So in S. T. They’re fairly small but they can still get pretty

[00:24:55] Evan Francen: big how big how big a school is Penn State

[00:24:59] Andrea Hatcher: Penn State. So the main campus which is the campus I’m on has 45,000 students just on the main campus and overall including World campus which is our online campus. I believe it’s around 100,000. So it’s, it’s a very big school. Uh huh.

[00:25:18] Evan Francen: I went to the University of Minnesota.

[00:25:21] Andrea Hatcher: That sounds very cold.

[00:25:24] Evan Francen: Yeah. I don’t know why we don’t know why we live here. Well, that’s because Bradley’s here. That’s what I live here.

[00:25:31] Brad Nigh: I moved here because you lived here. Wait, we’re doing

[00:25:34] Evan Francen: what the hell

[00:25:35] Andrea Hatcher: aren’t you guys down in florida?

[00:25:37] Brad Nigh: I lived in florida for a while and no thanks to all the time. Yes.

[00:25:45] Andrea Hatcher: It’s that humidity

[00:25:46] Brad Nigh: hurricanes.

[00:25:48] Evan Francen: So penn state is about the same size as the University of Minnesota. And the reason why I was wondering is trying to put it into perspective. I remember like my psych one on one class my freshman year was like, we had a whole auditorium. You never saw the professor. Um, it was all taught on video. Just send me the video. I don’t need to go to class.

[00:26:15] Andrea Hatcher: I mean our big classes are like at like the professor is always there and I learned very early on that in order to be engaged in those classes. I had to sit in the first four rows, which always makes the classes seem smaller and the professor knows your face. So you kind of get that personal interaction and that personal connection that, that really helps in those big classes.

[00:26:39] Evan Francen: You seem like a real ambitious person.

[00:26:42] Andrea Hatcher: I like to think I am, I definitely have goals and aspirations that I want to achieve. So I consider myself a very

[00:26:53] Evan Francen: good vicious person. Well that will also serve you well. It will serve you well to be a lifelong learner. It serves you well that you’re you are a good communicator. You can tell that. Uh and I think being assertive, being ambitious, you know, I will also serve you well. One of the things that Renee had said in in the first um part of the series was how important it it’s been for her to be strong. You know, when she did face adversity, you know, she was strong, you know, um I also talked to others, you know, outside of the podcast just getting their opinion and said how important like uh what’s the women in cyber jiu jitsu women, you know what I’m talking about? But there are some good women groups in information security that are support groups. Um, I can’t remember what I was talking to, but they’re not, you know, you know, some when you have a woman’s group or a men’s group, you know, there’s the bashing crap that goes on from what I hear in the women’s, many of the women’s groups in information security um are not bashing groups very much supportive groups build each other up.

[00:28:13] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, right. We have one of those at Penn State’s called? Women in, in for women in information science and technology. Um it’s a great program we call it twist. Uh they offer a mentoring program where they pair up juniors and seniors with incoming freshmen coming into information security? I’m a part of that. It’s a wonderful program and it’s really nice to kind of come together and see other women that are in the same situation as you are and connect and get those networks for once you graduate. And I was looking at the executive Women’s Forum for information security and privacy, which Laurie was talking about. And I saw the membership fee, Which was $395, but it didn’t have a student fee for people in university university.

[00:29:13] Evan Francen: So what’s the name of

[00:29:14] Andrea Hatcher: that group of the Executive Women’s Forum for information security and privacy.

[00:29:23] Evan Francen: Do you want to join them?

[00:29:24] Andrea Hatcher: I do. And I’m actually saving up the money. My parents have been so gracious of, they really want me to do that. And I was looking on their website and they say they encourage university women to join. But unfortunately a lot of women in university can’t afford that, you know, you’re already struggling to pay the tuition books and things like that. And when I was an engineer, I was a part of an organization called Sweetie Society of Women in Engineering and they actually offered a student fee. So a reduced price for the four years that you’re in university. So I think that’s important if they want to get these younger women to come in to maybe have a student v um so

[00:30:12] Evan Francen: uh if they don’t have a student feet, would you be ok if half our security is paid for it for you?

[00:30:20] Andrea Hatcher: I wouldn’t know what to say. That would be amazing.

[00:30:24] Evan Francen: Absolutely. No it uh No I mean I want I don’t want to hold you up, you know, so we’ll take care of that after after the podcast, we’ll take care of that. Okay.

[00:30:36] Andrea Hatcher: That’s amazing. Thank you so

[00:30:37] Evan Francen: much. Absolutely. We like helping. That’s what we do.

[00:30:42] Andrea Hatcher: You’ve definitely helped in more ways than one for me.

[00:30:45] Evan Francen: Good. I’m super excited about your future. I can just like I said I remember those days, you know just the freshness of it all and uh no I’m old. We have to pass her, you know what they’re talking about? They’re gonna it’s not retirement. Uh You know what Renee calls it now, the sidelining God’s gonna sideline me, put me off to the side, get in the way of and you’re slowing us down. Uh Alright so classes uh not too big. Now, what’s the mix in terms of gender in those classes?

[00:31:23] Andrea Hatcher: So according to Penn State in the College of IST the ratio is 76 men to 20 for women. So it’s not the best ratio but it is certainly a better ratio than it has been in the past. Um It can certainly be intimidating for a young women just coming in because there have been times when I’ve maybe been the only girl in the class or one of three in a class. So, I see it every day that it’s slowly evening out. Um It’s just taking time, I think.

[00:32:04] Evan Francen: Yes, that’s people like Loria that will go down in history as being like pioneers one, you know, I’m sticking to their in history. You know? Speaking of history, there have been some very very influential women in infinite behind the scenes a lot of times. But we should do some research on that bread and do a talk on just the early days of some of these women that worked at Nasa that worked for. Mhm. You know, a bunch of different projects.

[00:32:34] Brad Nigh: Is it Hedley? Lamarr isn’t that like together right now

[00:32:40] Evan Francen: and you probably knows all this stuff.

[00:32:42] Brad Nigh: I was like, wait, I’m sorry. That’s the mel brooks. It was the oh my gosh, who is the the actress in that? She was like, she developed the radio hopping frequency. Uh Oh my God, I can’t think of a name.

[00:32:58] Andrea Hatcher: I’m blanking

[00:32:59] Evan Francen: becomes to you. We’re going to do a study Me and you we’ll do a study women history of women in information security bread. And it will be our homework. Uh Andrew has got homework to do. So we’ll have homework to

[00:33:19] Andrea Hatcher: I expect a full 10 page dissertation on it,

[00:33:23] Evan Francen: yep, brad. You listening.

[00:33:26] Brad Nigh: I’m listening. I’m just gonna drive me crazy though.

[00:33:29] Evan Francen: Okay, 10. She wants a 10 piece dissertation. All right. Uh gender ratio family, friends. What are your sounds like your family is very supportive.

[00:33:41] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah. So I’m the only child. You really? So my yeah, it’s just me. Unless you count the dog, he’s the favorite child. 100%. But no, I’m very lucky. My family is extremely supportive. I have a father who works in D. O. D. And was in the navy and he does strategic planning. So he interacts a lot with people in cybersecurity and just in information security. So I’ve been looking enough to meet people in it. And I’ve actually met some women through him, which has been amazing. Um My mother doesn’t know a lot about any of this, but she’s my biggest cheerleader. So I’ll talk about what we’re worried about class and she’ll say I have no idea what you’re saying and I don’t understand any of it, but I’m very proud of you.

[00:34:28] Evan Francen: It’s cool. Yeah. I grew up an only child to my and my son. Only one of my actually no yeah one of my Children followed in my footsteps. Uh So he’s a pen tester now at fr secure. And I remember the day uh because I grew up a network guy. Um you know I know networking. It’s just and I have a version for hasn’t changed, right? It’s the same as it was back when I was your age. Um But I remember the day he called me and said dad. I know what an I. P. Addresses. It’s like I had a boy. I’m so proud of you right now. You know because a lot of times there’s nobody you can really talk to about work. I if I go home and and uh talk to my wife, she’ll be my cheerleader. She is she’s my support but she has no idea what the hell I’m talking about.

[00:35:28] Brad Nigh: Yeah. The neighbors you started talking about what you do and start talking and then did you see the blank looks?

[00:35:35] Evan Francen: Yeah. Oh is that like identity theft?

[00:35:39] Brad Nigh: Yeah, sure.

[00:35:41] Evan Francen: Part of it may be. Yeah. So you’ll you’ll run into that. I’m sure you probably already are right as you’re explaining things to people.

[00:35:49] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, definitely. So not only my parents but my extended family as well. Um They’re also very supportive. I’m the oldest out of all the cousins. So I’m always getting bombarded with questions of what you want to do. What are you learning in your classes? And I try my best to explain and putting in very late in terms I tend to use a lot of metaphors to explain how things work.

[00:36:17] Evan Francen: You can yeah. You always do that. You know, we’ve been yeah for years we’ve been struggling with trying to explain people mm Ever since I’ve been and I started In this industry in 1992 Cleaning boot sector viruses off of Windows three machines. So you’ve probably never seen a boot sector virus and you’ve probably never seen a Windows three machine,

[00:36:42] Andrea Hatcher: I’ve seen a book boot sector virus in my textbook,

[00:36:45] Evan Francen: does that count? Yeah. Yeah, it does. But the uh what was I gonna say? Oh, do you find um being an only child? Are you like one of the things? I don’t think it’s a character flaw. I think it depends on how you use it. I’m always my own biggest critic. Can you relate to that?

[00:37:08] Andrea Hatcher: 100%. I struggled with that growing up a lot. I was an athlete. I played volleyball for 10 years. Um in school, I always criticize myself if I got below with an A. Even now I still struggle with that. I’m definitely my own biggest critic and my parents tell me a lot that I need to give myself a break.

[00:37:32] Evan Francen: Yeah, we’ll try to keep that in check. You know, as somebody who’s an only child to it and I am and brad. You might be your own biggest critic too, but uh it’s easy to beat yourself up. You know, there’s a thing in this industry called imposter syndrome.

[00:37:48] Andrea Hatcher: Yes, I’m very familiar with imposter syndrome.

[00:37:52] Evan Francen: Uh well, just know that, you know, when you surround yourself with, you know, others that build you up, uh it will talk you out of that, you know crap because this this is a hard industry. It’s hard on you mentally. I think it’s hard. Uh even physically wouldn’t you say brad?

[00:38:12] Brad Nigh: Oh yeah. I mean you don’t realize it because people go, you just sit at a desk, but if you’re working in an incident or a disaster and you’re working 24 36 48 hours, I mean, it wears you down. Yeah.

[00:38:29] Evan Francen: So just keep it in balance, I guess. You know, and there’s plenty of help as you continue to progress and you feel stressed out or you feel lonely or you feel, you know, kind of lost. It’s really important to have that support structure, you know, um, mental health hackers, You’ve heard of them?

[00:38:46] Andrea Hatcher: I haven’t

[00:38:48] Evan Francen: okay. Mental health hackers, uh, great resource, you know, of kind of support for, around mental health and mental health awareness. I think more of us could use that because, you know, you look when you look at the statistics like, what is it, half of adults brad? I think over the course of their lifetime struggle with a mental health issue.

[00:39:12] Brad Nigh: Yeah. I just not even

[00:39:16] Evan Francen: less than half ever get help for it, right? So it’s

[00:39:20] Andrea Hatcher: definitely, it’s definitely a taboo, I think in our society to have a mental health issue. Um, it’s very much, at least my dad’s generation, not so much my generation anymore, but keep quiet and kind of suck it up,

[00:39:36] Brad Nigh: which is crazy to think about because over half the people have it and nobody talks about it.

[00:39:41] Andrea Hatcher: Exactly,

[00:39:43] Evan Francen: right. And I think it’s really easy in our industry to slip into that too because I think, um, depending on which path you go in our industry, there’s so much um opportunity, right? The governance throughout training and you can do training, you could do Red Teaming, Blue Teaming, uh you can do instant response, I mean, there’s so much stuff to do in this history, so wherever you end up going, some of the jobs that you end up taking, I think are uh sort of lonely. Mhm. Uh so, you know, now I think being an only child, it kind of equipment for that because I was always able to kind of keep myself occupied. Um but yeah, good to set the good habits now.

[00:40:26] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it sounds like you’ve got some good support with the women group there, the college and hopefully that’s something that you guys can all keep in touch. And yeah, I’m doing some of these other things.

[00:40:40] Evan Francen: What challenges have you had any specific challenges that come to mind or any specific difficulties that, you know, as you’ve been going down this path?

[00:40:48] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, definitely. So because I started in cybersecurity later than other people, I’ve definitely had to catch up, a lot of my peers have been doing this since they were in high school and they know that’s what they want to do, a lot of them started out playing video games and then they’d be against bots and it just kind of grew from there. So I definitely had to catch up, which has been difficult, but I’m slowly getting to that by doing the extra work outside the class, asking questions to my professors, so that’s definitely a big struggle. And then another one is that a group projects? We do. A lot of group work in the college of I. S. T. Because you do a lot of group work in the real world. A lot of my peers tend to give me either no work or very little work, so I have to kind of stand up and advocate for myself saying, no, I know how to do this, and yes, I can do this, let me have this part of the project.

[00:41:55] Brad Nigh: Yeah,

[00:41:55] Evan Francen: well, the real world, they just slap

[00:41:57] Brad Nigh: them say that that sucks for you, you’re having to do that, but I think that’s going to be an incredible skill for your career moving forward, just having that confidence to be able to do that.

[00:42:11] Evan Francen: Well, how refreshing is it too? Here’s somebody asking for stuff to do. You know, I don’t know if it’s apparent thing or something, but it seems like the generation that follows and, and, and it was probably my grandparents said the same thing about my parents who said the same thing about me, I’m saying the same thing about my kids, but it’s like, it seems like there’s a lack of initiative and a lot of kids, so to see and hear you like, hey, give me some stuff, let’s go, that’s cool. Uh and what kind of advice do you have for somebody who’s thinking about getting into this.

[00:42:55] Andrea Hatcher: So my biggest advice is just don’t be intimidated. You may walk into class and pretty much seen only guys, there are women in the industry, but we’re spread out and you have to actively look for them, don’t be afraid to speak up, especially in class, don’t be afraid to ask questions and don’t be afraid to fail. I’ve seen a lot of girls hold back because they’re afraid to try something because they don’t want to embarrass themselves and fail. And another big one is don’t be afraid to reach out and connect to other women in the industry, that is so, so important, they’re going to be your support network eventually they can maybe even help you get a job, give you a recommendation um talk to their boss and say I had this girl in my class, she was amazing, she does. So and so and that can be really helpful.

[00:43:50] Evan Francen: Good advice.

[00:43:52] Brad Nigh: It is, but I think you touched on something that I think has been the biggest surprise for me the whole series and every single person has said it is when you know the difference in men and women of trying and failing and how women just want to be 100% and guys, are just I mean if I fail, okay, let’s learn from it and move and try again and that’s just that’s really been interesting to hear

[00:44:18] Evan Francen: well and I think I look back at my career and even today sometimes I’m almost borderline reckless.

[00:44:25] Brad Nigh: Yeah

[00:44:27] Evan Francen: you know what I mean? I pushed so hard and like I don’t know what would happen if I push that button catching production, I’m gonna push the button crap, I should have pushed that button but it just that just emphasizes that much more though. I think the need for women on teams. Mhm. Uh Different perspectives, a different way of thinking about things. The um if if women because I’m saying if because that’s what we’ve heard from the people, the women we’ve talked to, women seem a little more cautious, you know just in general. Uh huh That’s nice man, I would I would want that right team. I think that’s why my wife, I mean honestly but makes it such a good couple cause I’m a reckless idiot and she’s like her number one either done strength finders before Andrea

[00:45:22] Andrea Hatcher: no I haven’t.

[00:45:24] Evan Francen: Okay it’s Clifton, is that who wrote that? It’s uh you just study and you know survey Clifton was a big data guy. Um And uh I wrote a book called strength finders and the theory is uh identify your strengths, focus on your strengths and minimize your weaknesses, right? Um And it’s kind of an enlightening thing, especially if you’re somebody like like you know like we are we’re really hard on yourself because then the better I understand myself then I’m not hard on myself anymore about like stuff I suck at. I’m just always gonna suck at that stuff. But my wife’s number one strength is responsibility one So that fits perfectly. It’s probably number 50 on mine. Yeah. Uh So if you heard, did they talk about the talent shortage issue in your classes at all?

[00:46:28] Andrea Hatcher: So not so much of my classes but in I’m fortunate at Penn state we have the opportunity to have a lot of guest speakers come in. Um We get a lot of guest speakers from D. O. D. Banking companies and private security companies and they have definitely pushed it that there is a huge need for people in cybersecurity not just people who have degrees in computer engineering, Engineering or computer science but specifically cybersecurity because it’s different than those two and they really need it especially now that everything is online, everything that you do is online. So yeah they definitely touched on

[00:47:11] Evan Francen: it. How does that feel that encourage you? Because that probably means there’s a job for you at the end of a

[00:47:18] Andrea Hatcher: 100%. It makes me a little less anxious about the future. Um and it makes me more confident that I’ll be able to get a pretty stable career hopefully early on.

[00:47:29] Evan Francen: Yeah and honestly I’ve seen so many security people and so many young security people I have no doubt for you. I mean the fact that you took the initiative to reach out in the beginning and you know, uh, to her email and then, Yeah. And just talking to you. Yeah, He’s a cake. It’s now, Yeah. In which I had those skills when I was your age, but I didn’t look at me now

[00:47:59] Andrea Hatcher: you have your own podcast.

[00:48:01] Evan Francen: Hey, my own broadcast.

[00:48:02] Brad Nigh: Someone author. I mean

[00:48:05] Evan Francen: author Got two Harleys now.

[00:48:07] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, that’s more than I had. I had zero.

[00:48:11] Evan Francen: Yeah. Harley’s are fun. Uh, so what’s, it’s okay? So that’s good. You’re probably, You never know for 100%, but I’m pretty confident. We’re gonna have a nice job when you get done with school. Uh, even if you didn’t get down to school, to be honest with you. You know, there’s, there’s so much opportunity and it’s the things that people really need to hire for are the intangibles. All right. We can teach you security. It’s not rocket science, Right? And there’s all kinds of different ways to teach security. You can teach it lectures. Some people, you know, are better with videos, Some people are better with books and you know, whatever, whatever fits for you. But the thing that you can’t teach are those intangibles. I can teach you to be honest. Can teach you to have integrity. You can teach you to be dependable. Can’t teach you to have gifts either have gifts or you don’t have gifts right now the good thing about our security industry is it’s so vast and it’s so broad that I think we can fit just about any gift in somewhere. Right? Yeah. Uh huh. So recruiting people now, have you talked to any recruiters yet? Have even gone down that path yet?

[00:49:27] Andrea Hatcher: Oh, 100% penn State has the largest career fair on the east coast. So I go to those career fairs, the college advice, he has its own career fair. So I go to all those career fairs and talk to people and actually one of my passions is getting more women into the industry. I’m really passionate about that. I try to work on that. So it’s,

[00:49:52] Evan Francen: that’s cool.

[00:49:54] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, definitely.

[00:49:55] Evan Francen: So where do we, so where do we get? Yeah. Yeah. Is it middle school, is it even before that? Excuse me.

[00:50:07] Andrea Hatcher: I definitely think the biggest thing that would help get more women is outreach and exposure. I mean statistically the more people that you exposed to information security and the more people are gonna come in it, which more women might come in. And actually over last summer I was a coding instructor for young Children and I had a little girl come in, she was about nine and her brother had been coding, they use a program called scratch. So it’s not hard coding, it’s lot coding and I was doing a demonstration on how to do it And afterwards she came up to me and she said, you know, I’ve always seen my brother and my friends do it. I’ve never really seen a female do it and watching you code makes me think that I can do it too. So I think a big way to get more women is to have women come in and talk about it because they’ll be able to identify more with a woman than a man and they’ll see her and say she is a strong successful woman. I could be that. That’s amazing. So I definitely think outreach and exposure to girl scouts info sessions, summer camps, local workshops is super important. That will get more women involved.

[00:51:31] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s awesome. One of the, uh, you know, whenever I’ve, I have five kids and each one of the Children, you try to identify just their gifts, you know, what are they kind of built for? Um, And then you just try to encourage that, right? You try to expose them to everything. Like my, my 15 year old daughter, my youngest, uh, you know, I introduced her to electronics. Right? So we built, uh, you know, I brought home some more. Do we know stuff to play around with and uh, no interest Like zero. Well, all right. If you change your mind you know, So then, you know, you’re going to another thing, but I think not enough parents maybe just, or maybe it’s just society in general doesn’t to say, you know, what are your gifts and just do whatever you want. You know, you might be a math whiz. Math isn’t, isn’t a boy’s sport, right?

[00:52:33] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Well, I also wonder because my daughters are 14 and 12, so they had exposure to this as well. And you know, I get a lot of the eye rolls and stuff. Big day at least show some interest when I’m working on stuff. But how, you know, the image of info sec experts and then with daughters that are exposing on his small too. Right. We’re supposed to other professions that are, that are more, they’re more of, right? So I wonder if that also plays a part of it. Mhm

[00:53:05] Evan Francen: Yeah, I love, and that’s a, that’s a beautiful story. So a nine year old girl. Could you just dead, You know what I mean? You just opened or opening horizons like, oh, you mean I can do that too.

[00:53:18] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah. I, I may have gone to back and quite a little bit. I was, I was so touched and it’s definitely important for them to see women doing that. And I think just in high school, I didn’t even know that cyber security was an option or even a career or field. I didn’t know that my freshman year in college. So I think just putting it out there saying, hey, this is an option. This is what you can do with this career would do wonders and not only getting more women, but getting more diversity in general,

[00:53:53] Evan Francen: wow brad. We took a lot of things for granted. You know what I mean? Because victoria had that same kind of a similar thing. Yeah. She didn’t even know that information. Security or cyber security was a thing. I hope that was the thing. Weird.

[00:54:11] Brad Nigh: Yeah,

[00:54:13] Evan Francen: it’s like parallel universes.

[00:54:14] Brad Nigh: We got a lot of work to do.

[00:54:16] Evan Francen: What’s the plural of universes in universe? A universes.

[00:54:20] Andrea Hatcher: It’s just universes.

[00:54:23] Evan Francen: All right, well, you’re the one in college. I’m skate non

[00:54:28] Andrea Hatcher: english major.

[00:54:29] Evan Francen: Yeah, me neither. All right. Well uh awesome, awesome. Really gave us some good things to think about. I love your perspective. You you got it. It’s gonna be fun to progress in your career. Uh So thanks again. Andrea for joining us.

[00:54:49] Andrea Hatcher: Thank you again for having me. It was such an honor.

[00:54:51] Evan Francen: Absolutely. Well, honor’s ours truly. It’s really cool to when you see people progress in their career. It’s the best blessing ever. There’s no dollar amount to put on it, you know. Mhm. Uh All right, so now it’s time for some news and Andrea please stick around. You’re more than welcome to chime in anytime you want to.

[00:55:11] Andrea Hatcher: This is of course this is one of my favorite parts of the podcast.

[00:55:15] Evan Francen: This isn’t just time for old people to talk about news. Mhm. Young people have stuff to flashy Nigerian instagram star. Do you on instagram? It spread.

[00:55:30] Brad Nigh: I do. I do not have instagram, I do know what it is.

[00:55:34] Evan Francen: Used Tiktok,

[00:55:35] Andrea Hatcher: nope. Oh God,

[00:55:37] Evan Francen: no. If you use Tic Tac, you deserve to be hacked bread.

[00:55:40] Brad Nigh: I do not, I don’t think I don’t have facebook.

[00:55:44] Evan Francen: I have facebook just cause I post Harley pictures all the time. All right. Uh, flashy. So this comes from naked security by so foes clashing Nigerian instagram star extradited to us to face B. E. C. Charges business email compromise charges. This is dated july 7th 2020 starts like last Tuesday. Yeah. Uh, did you read anything about this? Did you hear about this?

[00:56:11] Brad Nigh: Hern’t heard about this one.

[00:56:14] Evan Francen: So this person uh, known as Ray hush puppy. Yeah, why not? Really? That’s the best you can do.

[00:56:25] Andrea Hatcher: I mean, I like hush puppies as much as the next person,

[00:56:28] Evan Francen: but yeah. Especially being, you know, yeah. Where you guys grew up Ramon Allah Rune Wa Abbas Age 37. Uh, I’m not sure how they caught him, but he was, he had an instagram account with quite a following and he was always kind of flashing around his blank, well, turns out all that bling with stuff that he had Essentially stolen 2.4 million users or followers on instagram. So not only did he and this is where so many dumb ass Attackers lose it is you can’t just be quiet gonna brag about it. You gotta, you know, flash it around. Well, that’s what he did. And that’s what he did. He got busted. He’s a Nigerian national. I mean Chicago being extradited from the United arab Emirates.

[00:57:22] Andrea Hatcher: It’s like those emails that you get saying that I’m a Nigerian prince and I need all this money.

[00:57:29] Evan Francen: Business email compromise is are so easy.

[00:57:32] Brad Nigh: Oh gosh,

[00:57:33] Evan Francen: yeah, we do. Uh we we, I don’t know how many way uh, investigate now, but what I did was like 800 Some $1000 all gone. Yeah. And it’s just basic best practices right with protecting these things. Two factor authentication. Dual control. Um,

[00:58:01] Brad Nigh: and even then we had that email compromise where they had multi factor and the users still click the approved. Yes.

[00:58:10] Evan Francen: But even even dual control for changing account, like certain certain controls then the financial system, you should have dual control. Absolutely. Which means that your clerk can’t change your accounts payable or accounts receivable, can’t just change account numbers and things like that. It’s got to go dual control. Somebody else has to validate it and approve it. Uh because a lot of times these business email compromise is I as the attacker trick you into believing that I’m the person you owe money to, you know, And so then I reach out to you and say, hey, um, we changed the way we’re accepting payments now or we changed banks or whatever. What’s the process that I need to follow for you to, you know, to change it on your system. And the business email compromise. Part of it is the Attackers compromise. The email and they created the inbox rules. So the real legitimate email user never sees the conversations that are happening.

[00:59:10] Brad Nigh: We had one where they were actually communicating with ri our team, the attacker through the email.

[00:59:20] Evan Francen: Have you ever done an incident response where you’ve seen multiple people fighting while you’re there?

[00:59:26] Brad Nigh: Not proof of it? But we’ve seen one that definitely appeared that there were multiple multiple groups and there was very different families of malware we were found. Yeah.

[00:59:37] Evan Francen: Anyway, if you’re if you’re into those things, you can read the complaint. I think I like reading complaints to be honest. Uh so linked to the complaint um is in that news article Beginning no later than August 15, October 15, 2019 and continuing to at least October 17. Yeah. Whatever you can make it yourself. It’s good stuff. Anything to add on that 1?

[01:00:04] Brad Nigh: No, that is still happening.

[01:00:08] Evan Francen: Mhm. Yeah.

[01:00:10] Brad Nigh: Glad they caught him.

[01:00:11] Evan Francen: As long as these people. Right. But what do you think is gonna happen to him? How much time did he’s gonna get?

[01:00:18] Brad Nigh: I have no idea.

[01:00:20] Evan Francen: Do you think you haven’t been found guilty?

[01:00:23] Brad Nigh: I haven’t read the complaint. So I don’t I don’t know what the evidence, but I mean the fact that they were able to extradite him and bring him over. It seems like they’ve got some pretty solid

[01:00:34] Evan Francen: evidence. A lot of that nation exchange stuff. There’s always something political there, You know what I mean? It wasn’t just hey we caught this guy, do you want him kind of thing? Mhm. Alright. The next one is from beta News and the title is do you put tape over your webcam? So hackers can’t spy on you? Apple says not to

[01:01:04] Andrea Hatcher: that sounds like Apple.

[01:01:05] Brad Nigh: Right. Well it’s funny because if you read it and then read what it says, it’s headlines a little bit misleading because they’re saying don’t do it because it could damage the computer aided design for for that.

[01:01:20] Evan Francen: But how many times do people just do nothing but read the title of the article? You’re right. They don’t want you to damage the camera.

[01:01:30] Andrea Hatcher: Well don’t they have kind of devices that you can put over and slide?

[01:01:37] Brad Nigh: Yeah we should. But they’re saying not to do that because it will break it there too thick it will break the display.

[01:01:44] Evan Francen: Yeah. So those Macbook airs are like this then.

[01:01:50] Brad Nigh: Well I like the explain are the suggestion at the end of every computer maker should integrated, built in privacy shutter at this point. Why not?

[01:02:01] Evan Francen: Absolutely. Yeah. The only way you can truly protect against it is to visit it’s a physical control. Right? Uh Yeah. So if you’re using now I didn’t see anywhere in the article that was going to void the warranty or anything like that, did you?

[01:02:18] Brad Nigh: No, but don’t probably find a way to argue that you modified

[01:02:22] Evan Francen: it. Is Apple. When are they going to innovate something again?

[01:02:28] Brad Nigh: Yeah. I don’t know.

[01:02:30] Evan Francen: You know when when steve jobs was around they were innovating all the time. Now they don’t innovate anymore. They just had another camera and then charge you more

[01:02:42] Andrea Hatcher: soon. You’re going to have an iphone. That’s just all cameras that back. Right?

[01:02:47] Evan Francen: Like 50 cameras. Alright. The next one is from info security group, our info info security magazine dot com team murdered after confronting cyber bullies.

[01:03:03] Brad Nigh: It is just sucks.

[01:03:06] Andrea Hatcher: That’s awful.

[01:03:08] Evan Francen: Well the the point here is this stuff happens and apparently we need to do something as an industry to awake parents up not just to this but also to human trafficking. Also to um, you know, sexual predators. I mean it’s it’s crazy man because brad you and I are the last generation that grew up without cell phones. Yeah, we’re the last ones who grew up actually going to bed after I played with my Star Wars action figure or something. You know what I mean? I didn’t I wasn’t

[01:03:46] Brad Nigh: Yeah, no tablets or phones or devices

[01:03:49] Evan Francen: right? And now, you know, so if that’s the generation that’s raising this generation that’s suffering from this stuff huge disconnect. They don’t even know

[01:04:01] Andrea Hatcher: a lot of parents don’t even know what their Children are doing online, right? And they don’t have the parent protectors or anything like that, which is a huge issue

[01:04:11] Evan Francen: and the human nature part of it? That sucks is people don’t do something until something bad happens. Yeah. So what do you do now? You know this? So this is a teenager in SAN Diego fatally shot after confronting cyber bullies who targeted her sister online. So protecting her assembly ends up dying for it.

[01:04:34] Brad Nigh: Yeah.

[01:04:36] Andrea Hatcher: Oh, I was going to say and a lot of people my age and younger don’t realize that what you say online has real life consequences. Yeah. And I think that needs to be pushed

[01:04:48] Brad Nigh: and yeah, exactly, you don’t know who you’re meeting.

[01:04:51] Andrea Hatcher: Exactly,

[01:04:52] Brad Nigh: right? Why would you go confront what you think is, you know, A 15 year old girl, whatever whoever were however old and then you don’t know who you’re meeting, that’s just a huge risk.

[01:05:09] Evan Francen: Well, yeah, well, it’s, I mean, it’s all social engineering, you know, in terms of the predators and the sex trafficking and most of that stuff, right? It’s you catch somebody at a week time, you know, it gets exciting. It’s exciting talking to somebody online who’s talking to me about things I’ve never talked about before, right? Opening my eyes to a whole new world, get to worry

[01:05:35] Andrea Hatcher: and especially if you’re a young girl nowadays, you’re very insecure with your looks. So if you have someone online saying, oh, you’re really pretty, you’re really beautiful. Like I would love to meet up with, you can be enticing to younger female

[01:05:49] Evan Francen: for sure. Mhm. That’s sad. So we have a long ways to go on that, I mean there’s no real tips in the news story or anything about it. It’s just bringing it to, you know, awareness, you know? So if there are parents listening who haven’t talked to their Children about what they do online that aren’t looking and then don’t just take them at their word for it either and don’t be a jerk, you know, and just beat down on it. Like what I did with my daughter and I think you did the same thing with yours brad is you have a discussion, right? I’m having this discussion because I love you not having this discussion because I mean because, you know, I’m Oh yeah, Colin

[01:06:34] Brad Nigh: here’s the reality,

[01:06:35] Evan Francen: right? It’s our job as parents to protect our Children, right? That’s like my job number two, maybe three. Job number one is probably my wife, right? And then job two is probably the kids or the dog and I could be the doge Andrea

[01:06:54] Andrea Hatcher: for my parents, it’s the dog, which I understand. He’s adorable and a well behaved child. So why wouldn’t he be your favorite?

[01:07:02] Evan Francen: I don’t know, you’re gonna make a lot more money in a hell of a lot better industry than your dog is.

[01:07:06] Andrea Hatcher: I’m not as fluffy though.

[01:07:08] Evan Francen: Well, just growing

[01:07:10] Andrea Hatcher: up, but as someone who is still a kid and who was obviously younger kids very recently. I think the biggest thing that my parents did when they had that conversation with me is to not talk down to me to talk to me like it’s something that I’m able to understand and I think that brings in that sense of responsibility of saying, okay, so this is a serious thing. My parents trust me to make the right decisions and they trust me to understand the seriousness of it and then I think that makes the implementation a lot better.

[01:07:46] Evan Francen: Yeah, really good advice. Really good. Alright, wrapping up shout outs there. You have an episode 88 is a wrap, well almost thank you Andrea again, that’s like This many times, probably three times I said thank you

[01:08:03] Andrea Hatcher: and I’m going to thank you again because again, this is such an amazing opportunity that when I emailed you guys, I didn’t think whatever happened, I’m

[01:08:11] Evan Francen: going to see her thank you and I’m going to raise you another thank you. That’s for, for me now. Oh goodness yeah, we’ll just get competitive because you were probably competitive too, but

[01:08:23] Andrea Hatcher: very

[01:08:25] Evan Francen: me to uh so that was our fifth installment I think was awesome for the Women in Security series next week, we welcome another great guest. It’s going to be Judy Hatchet, she’s the sea. So uh for um sure scripts and she’s a good friend, she’s amazing. So tune in next week brad, you’re leaving next week, you get to talk to Judy, you know Judy don’t you know Judy

[01:08:51] Brad Nigh: Judy’s awesome,

[01:08:53] Evan Francen: she really is uh either of you have any shout outs this week

[01:08:59] Brad Nigh: so I would say I looked it up and it was Heady Lamar was very close that developed radio frequency skipping.

[01:09:06] Evan Francen: All right. So you’re giving a shout out to Heady Lamar.

[01:09:08] Brad Nigh: There you go. Women in historic history for PROzac,

[01:09:12] Evan Francen: good for you man. Andrea do you have do you have any shoutouts? Anybody who are?

[01:09:18] Andrea Hatcher: I want to give a shout out to my club could develop. Hopefully you guys are doing well and staying safe this summer. And then obviously my parents thank you guys for supporting me and everything and I do and I love you guys so much

[01:09:30] Evan Francen: awesome and I’ll reiterate that also give a shout out. Just two parents who are stepping up, you know, parents who are taking that uncomfortable step of you know, learning the basics of information, security and cyber security so that they can protect their families better. I know that there are some out there. We need more of you. So shout out to that. Uh we appreciate you our listeners. If you’ve got something to say to us on the show, send us an email at un security at proton mail dot com. If you’re the social type socialist with us on twitter, we finally set up security podcast twitter. Did you see

[01:10:07] Brad Nigh: that? I was like how did we miss this for so long. I don’t know. You’re clearly not marketing people.

[01:10:13] Evan Francen: No, no not marketing at all. Look at us Brad, right? You can’t market this. Uh So that’s if you’re twittering, it’s at @UnsecurityP. P for podcast. The add on security. It was taken by a guy, I can remember his name but he’s been inactive since like 2015. So we won’t get that one if you want to socialize with brad, he’s @BradNigh. If you want to socialize with me, I’m @EvanFrancen. Andrea – Do you want people to get in touch with you? And if so how

[01:10:47] Andrea Hatcher: sure, I don’t have a twitter, but I have an instagram. It’s _hatcher728. So if you want to let me know. So you can definitely reach out to me.

[01:11:02] Evan Francen: Awesome. And I’m going to email you after the show and because I need to figure out how we’re gonna get you signed up for the the the women uh Executive Women’s Forum and also uh to get what you just said so they can put it on the blogs so that people can find it.

[01:11:25] Andrea Hatcher: Yeah, definitely.

[01:11:27] Evan Francen: Alright, well that’s it. We’ll talk to you again next week.