Mental Health First Aid Certification

Unsecurity Podcast

Evan has always been a strong proponent of weaving mental health transparency and help into the information security industry—one that tends to have long hours, stressful moments, and many other challenges that contribute to mental health struggles. With Brad out this week, Evan is joined by Ryan Cloutier for an honest and transparent discussion of mental health in infosec, their own personal mental health challenges, and the Mental Health First Aid certification.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:22] Evan Francen: Welcome listeners. Thanks for tuning into this episode of the un security podcast. This is episode 1 22. The date is large 10th 2021 and joining me is somebody new uh Ryan Cloutier.

[00:00:36] Ryan Cloutier: Hey you’re right. Doing good Evan. How about you?

[00:00:38] Evan Francen: Doing well too man, it’s, it’s good to have you on the show again video a couple of times uh, Brad couldn’t join us this week. It’s just got a ton of stuff going on. So I’m happy that you’re here. How you doing

[00:00:50] Ryan Cloutier: doing really great man. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me back. I always, I always enjoy when I get to spend time talking with you and you know hanging out. It’s always always fun and enjoy doing different things with your podcasts and stuff. So glad to be able to be here tonight with you excited. We’re going to talk about,

[00:01:11] Evan Francen: right? And so you mentioned tonight. So this is different. Normally we’re reporting these things on Tuesday mornings, brad and I get up at seven, you’re not a morning guy night, don’t fall that at all. I like to think of it as kind of shift change, right? You work late. I get up early, you kind of got the whole day covered two of us but it is night and it is a Wednesday night as opposed to Tuesday morning uh took us a little while to get ourselves coordinated, but here we are. And I also like talking with you by the way, we do our shit shows every thursday night. So everybody who’s listening thursday night do those lives meet Ryan and chris roberts and we talked about authentic all things tomorrow, we’re talking about uh tool for right, This is where people seem to continue to buy tools that don’t necessarily not to use them. Will be a great conversation tomorrow. You and I are always on that stuff, but this is the first time I think you and I have tag teamed on the on security podcast.

[00:02:16] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah, I think it is, I think what I’ve been on before, I’ve been a guest actually, it kind of takes me back the first time I was on was over a year ago and I think uh yeah, we weren’t even working together at that time. So it’s it’s been fun to watch this developed to, you know, as uh as one who actually, you know, does listen from time to time to the insecurity podcast. It’s it’s kind of cool to be able to do that and you know have it on the Spotify but also get a chance to be on it. Although I will admit, I generally don’t listen to my own

[00:02:49] Evan Francen: episodes. But yeah, I don’t, I’ve never, I can honestly say, I’ve never listened to an episode of the un security podcast. I hate hearing my voice. I don’t know what it is. So there you go. If it, if I sound funny, we’re going to have to tell me. So I’m not going to figure it out myself. Well,

[00:03:10] Ryan Cloutier: usually, you know, usually there’s, there’s some kind of background noise. You, uh, you like to do an adventurous life. So,

[00:03:18] Evan Francen: wow. Well that’s a good segue because right now we do this the first part of the podcast, usually just catching up right now. Today I’m down in uh Daytona For Daytona, five weeks. People don’t know. I love Freddie probably gave it some more wholesome, you know, kind of that culture. And so I’m sitting on the deck. So, and I see the ocean site just over there, you might hear in the background. Uh, probably guys like to love their motorcycles. I don’t have to do that. You might hear that from time to time. But yeah, I’m down here. Just kind of catching up on some rest. You started kicked me out I think for a week I’m not supposed to be working. So that’s what I’m doing down here.

[00:04:07] Ryan Cloutier: Well, you know, the vacations are good, very important.

[00:04:12] Evan Francen: Yeah. So what you’ve been doing since I’ve been done and what’s, what’s been going on in the home front.

[00:04:17] Ryan Cloutier: Uh, you don’t doing, doing a lot of awesome stuff to help the mission and really, um, serve, you know, you know, my passion area. It’s K. 12. And so then strategizing and working with other organizations and companies that are complementary to what we do. Um Looking for opportunities to really help. And actually I had a great conversation today with the partner of ours about scholarship opportunity for K. 12 to try to help them be able to leverage some security help and resources, consulting, advising, you know, different services. Uh And that seems to, that seems to be a concept that’s got a lot of, a lot of traction behind it. So I’m just, you know, I mean man, I like to, I like to help inspire others that we work with to to step up and do more to help out. Um and I’ve done a lot, a lot of that this week. And so it’s been really fulfilling for me.

[00:05:17] Evan Francen: That’s cool with you mentioned the mission, right? And we see all the time around you shouldn’t be four months. Uh and the mission really is to fix the broken industry. What that needs is making security attainable for everyone. Well we all have a role to play in information security. What’s your role? What are you doing? Well there’s as our parents uh you know, eating your Children getting their household whether it’s a school administrator, leaving a school protecting students protecting the community, whether it’s you know a business a little bit. You all have a role even as a child as a kid. What are the rules, What are the things I’m supposed to be doing on my ipad or my iphone, Right? So this mission of ours is, is huge and I love working on it with you because I know in your heart this is what we do, right? It’s all about this.

[00:06:12] Ryan Cloutier: Well it is. And you know, to that 0.1 of the fun things that we’ve been able to work on recently has been building a coalition of folks that are also wanting to help out and putting some structure around that, you know, and we landed on the name and I love it. The Gray matter Society. Um, I’m just, I’m really, really excited about that. I’ve actually spent a lot of time this week thinking about that and starting to make some initial calls to some folks that I wanna wanna invite. Um, it’s just really cool. And so for the listeners, the concept is that, uh, security professionals and non security professionals coming together to focus on and solve some of the most challenging problems and doing it in a way that’s going to promote the highest chance of success. So not trying to focus on too many things at once, but being very narrow in the focus, really working the property completion. And I think that part of it really solidified it from, from just kind of a neat idea. Like, wouldn’t it be nice gift, uh, to something more concrete that really does feel achievable. So I’m pretty stoked about it.

[00:07:27] Evan Francen: Yeah, man, I do it. This is one of the things that came from the should show you came from Probably four or 5 weeks ago. I think I was another, you know, air quotes vacation when I was actually working a lot down there. But it was we talked about a problem in our industry where I think I posed a question, what’s the most significant? What’s the root cause? All security problems? And it led us down this path? Well, it’s people. Well, okay, as sort of a cop out answer, what is it about people? You know, there’s a lot of times in our industry, look at people as those people, right? Not me. I’m not part of the problem. They are right? No, that’s not true. You are also part of problems. So as we got talking to it, I think we realized that the problems really not as difficult. Well, not as complicated to solve as we might think it is, but we don’t do it because I think we have so many competing motives, right? You’ve got money, right? Everybody wants to make a dime. Everybody wants to make money. We’ve got political motives where left or right. You know, I come from this angle and I want you to solve it this way so that it satisfies my constituents as opposed to yours, which I don’t really care about. We want to create this Grey matter society where it’s not about politics. It’s not about money. It’s not about saying it’s about let’s solve the damn problems. Make life better for everyone, right? And that’s that’s important that jazzes me man because we can do this. We just have to come together. We have salt these things together. And I think we can

[00:09:23] Ryan Cloutier: I really do. It’s going to be good. And it really is that coming together piece that’s so important, You know? And and some of this little bill develop as we get into the meat of our topic tonight. But I think it just empathy, right? It’s all rooted in that that empathy, empathy for your fellow human for society. And I think as long as that’s the driver behind folks participating in this, I think it’s going to be wildly successful.

[00:09:53] Evan Francen: Yeah. So for people, um, stay tuned for this, right? You’ll start hearing about it more and more. This might be the first time you’ve ever heard about it, the Great Matter Society. Or maybe you heard us mention you’re somewhere else. Um but this is going to become a thing where we’re going to recruit anybody to participate. Some of the biggest names in our industry will be part of this. As long as they have the right motives, we do have people in our industry. You don’t have the right motives. They won’t be invited. You won’t tolerate that. This is about serving society, not about serving an individual person. Uh, Oh yeah that will be seen. That will be awesome. But you mentioned are topic for tonight. It’s our topic for tonight. We talked about it before. We’ve talked about it on the shit show. We talked about it here on the un security podcast. It’s mental health and specifically the reason why this comes up again is yesterday both you and I and a number of leaders from the companies that we work for. We went through this training. This, it’s called the Mental Health First Aid M. V. H. F. A Certification training. It was four hours of I learned a ton and I wanted to share it with for listeners. I think it’s relevant to the jobs that we do. Um, if you’re a human being, you struggle with this one way or another, right? Whether it’s today, whether it’s tomorrow, sometime in your lifetime, more than half of us will struggle with a mental health disorder. So what are we gonna do about it?

[00:11:38] Ryan Cloutier: And I’d add to that too. For the half that aren’t struggling. You’ll still deal with it because you are going to be interacting with a colleague, a coworker or family member, a loved one spouse etcetera who is going to be struggling with it. And I think that for me was it was awesome. Part of this learning was having some new tools about how to talk about it. And and I guess uh talking about it directly was was the thing that was most eye opening. I think we have a tendency as people to talk around the subject to soften the language to maybe be hesitant to to ask, you know, very blunt and direct respectfully, obviously, but very blunt and direct. How are you doing? And are you having thoughts of suicide? I thought that was a very important call out

[00:12:31] Evan Francen: Got over two men. The quote of the day that I put in the chat was the more you talk about suicide, fewer people die.

[00:12:41] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah, and it’s true, it’s just it’s absolutely true, right? And I think a lot of that is rooted in the stigma aspect. And so, you know, I’m just glad we’re able to talk about this tonight because this is what we do to help fix this or to help create the necessary bridges for people to get the help they need right is by having an open, honest dialogue and not not shrinking away from it, not being afraid to talk and use the word suicide to say, you know, to ask somebody point blank, are you thinking about killing yourself not hurting yourself? And as we learned in our class, those are very different things. They don’t necessarily see the action of killing themselves as being uh an action of hurting themselves. So you have to use the right language. And I think that is just so important and just being honest about how you feel, you know, with yourself. I thought, the self the self care piece is so important for those in our industry. Yeah, I think we all do a better

[00:13:46] Evan Francen: job. The thing that if you were there with me and As we’re but 14, 13 other people. We have 15 people, which was the maximum class size. We had a bunch of people that we had to turn away. So we’ll probably do more training where we work and if our security through studio, we take this up very, very seriously. We don’t want anybody to suffer unnecessarily with any mental health disorder, any struggle in life. We also learn the average time period between somebody struggling with depression or, you know, suicide contemplation is 10 years, Right? There was that 10 year span where people suffer before they either get help or sam lee, they do take their own lives or they do end up getting worse to whether it’s a medical tissue. I mean, it’s worse than it. I mean, just that 10 years of suffering really hit home with me.

[00:14:56] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah. Well, the co morbidity, right? That that jumped out to me is during this this 10 years that there’s that whole co morbidity aspect of mental health that can affect your, you know, her condition, right? You know, we talked about anxiety and panic attacks and how symptom wise if you don’t know what’s going on. It can look and feel a lot like a heart attack externally to people observing it. It can look and appear to be like a heart attack. And the fact is as you go through it, you do experience that accelerated heart rate, that increased blood pressure. Those things that if you are susceptible to heart attack or, or condition could then potentially exacerbated. So it isn’t just strictly mental health. That was a big take away from me as well as this is a key component of overall physical health.

[00:15:50] Evan Francen: Yeah, yeah. Good point enemy. Uh, talked about, you know, suicide, obviously, depression, anxiety was another thing that was talked about panic attacks, how to deal with those things, how to be the person that can be connected to somebody and offer that support that they need at the time, they might need it. Right? Not shying away. Not feeling embarrassed about talking about these things openly fighting the state. And the reason why I think this is really important to us in our industry is it’s easy for us to become isolated. I don’t know if you’ve ever struggled with this, right? Anybody who is not in my shoes doesn’t understand what it’s like being my shoes. And so I feel like nobody gets me, nobody understands what I’m struggling with. And so I can easily uh, retreat, isolate myself. And if I don’t have good friends, if I don’t have somebody there, he’s going to say something to me. Okay, man, are you okay? Can I help you? I care about you. I love you. Uh, we don’t hear that enough in our history. Um, it’s easy to fall down that slope and I don’t want people to do that.

[00:17:11] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah. The, the empathy aspect, the connecting with your fellow human is so important, especially in this industry because you’re absolutely spot on. This is an industry where isolation is, it’s just a certain degree encouraged. We hoard our secrets. We are the keeper of the secrets. And so we have to hide away in our little cubbyholes and you know, put protectors on our screens and everything we do is hush hush. And then, you know, most likely were under one or multiple nds at any given moment. And so you know, we have a culture of silence. We have a culture of, we don’t talk to each other. And then I know myself personally and I’m sure you’ve experienced this as well. And probably the majority of listeners I get stressed out about stuff like why can’t people change your password? Why is this so hard trying to convey the emotional stress that that particular issue can cause me to a non security person. They look at me like I’m on something like really, you’re excited about this. I’m like, you understand like if we don’t change behavior, Things get worse, Things get worse. But this will be something that you will eventually care a lot about. But then it’s too late. The horse has left the barn. So I’m over here waving the flag trying to sound the alarm. And they’re looking at me saying, why, why, why are you feeling that way? So it’s it’s hard to connect to get empathy outside of the industry. If the thing, you know, if one of the major stressors is, you know, the work and the nature of the work we do,

[00:18:49] Evan Francen: Yeah, man. And I get like, yeah, and that’s why I think it’s so important for co workers, you know, other security people who marched down this path with me because my wife doesn’t understand it. My wife doesn’t understand what it’s like to be a security person, but it’s like to care so deeply about somebody protecting themselves, protecting their family. These are things that, you know, I don’t know. I think many of us may be obsessed about. I mean, I have no idea I obsess about, it pains me to see somebody suffered anywhere. I hate people suffering. I hate seeing people take being taken advantage of people don’t get that uh outside of our inch. They don’t get what I’m feeling. So I think having co workers, people like you, people like, you know, the 13 others who took this training with me having them marched on his path with me and be able to hold me accountable or say, hey man something’s off, not what’s going on. You know, that can mean the difference between life and death for people honestly

[00:20:02] Ryan Cloutier: it can and and that was another takeaway from the last was, you know, that little interaction, that small investment of effort can be and is life changing? Yeah. And you never know when somebody needs it. And the nice thing is about this and I would advocate for anyone that’s in a leadership position that has the ability to bring this into your workplace, Please do so. You will, you will learn a lot of things and you will also learn the impact that not managing mental health in your organization ultimately has to your bottom line, it does affect your overall productivity, it affects your throughput, the quality of work that you’re getting from your employees. The longevity of that employee unmanaged mental health generally needs to something not great. Uh, and I know my personal story here in the last few weeks and part of why I’m giving, having so much guff about being on vacation as I started to hit a wall, I started to get to a point mental health wise, where I was starting to go down the slope, I hadn’t started the journey yet, but I sure as heck was right at the edge and I knew that if I didn’t to do some self care if I didn’t prioritize Not worrying about work for a day, not, you know, really just stepping or truly stepping away, not checking that email, I have that bad habit. I’m sure most of us do. The email comes to the phone and it’s 9:00 at night and all. I ain’t really doing much else at the moment digging. It made a noise. I think I can just check it and before I know it, I’ve answered five emails and a three quarters of the way through a slide back that I shouldn’t have been doing while ignoring something else that needed attention at that time.

[00:21:53] Evan Francen: Dude, that’s such a good point in the and I think this is what makes this episode such it’s deeply personal for me because I know the struggles you and I have a great relationship. I I deeply admire you. You know, I love you and I’ve said that many times you say the same thing to me and we’ve sort of stolen that word in our in our society. Like it means something that it’s not what it means is I care about you as much or more than I care about myself. Mhm. I will do whatever I can to help you when you’re struggling with things to see you take that time off meant the world to me and I look forward to the time when you can do that again. You also afforded me that same opportunity. Yeah. You made it known many times, team meetings like Evan is not allowed email. You see an email, you let me know sometimes you have to have that sort of intervention to keep people from burning out to keep people from going off the edge. Because when you burn out, that’s just the beginning of a bunch of really shitty things. Excuse my language, burning out isn’t the bad thing is the beginning of many right out.

[00:23:16] Ryan Cloutier: And it is, and you know, it’s and you saw some signs, you know, this is even before we had the training and I chalk this up to your empathetic nature as a human, you’re just kind of more dialed in that way than than the average bear. And so you could see there was some slippage in the gears, there was a little bit of, you know, not getting the throughput that I could do. You know, there’s a little micro things and and you know, you would make sure to check in and because I’m very in touch with my own mental health, I was very vocal back to, you know, I’m not in a great place, no things are not going now. Another interesting point from yesterday is that at no point did I shirk my accountability, well, dealing with managing mental health, those are not separate things. I’m sorry, they are separate things. They’re not they’re not the same thing here. You you I still must be accountable to the commitments that you’ve made to the things that you said, you, especially in the workplace, you’ve got to deliver what you say, you’re going to deliver now, because I was able to communicate with heaven and have an open dialogue, we were able to work together to find an appropriate time where enough things had been transitioned away that I could step away for that week. And it not be disruptive to my colleagues right now. Had I had a mental health emergency. Well, sorry, got to prioritize myself first, but that’s that’s crisis more. Uh I was just dealing with generalized mental health concern and just you know, I’m an A. D. H. D. Person um have that diagnosis of half for years and with A. D. H. D. Comes uh you know, a bit of anxiety, a bit of depression. These are co co morbidity is if you will of the A. D. H. D. And unfortunately they kind of feed each other so you do have to make that time. But if I didn’t have the support and this is the important point I’m trying to make. If I didn’t have the support, I would not have felt as comfortable stepping away and I would have had a lot of the concerns that most people do well. Is this going to be viewed as weakness? Is it’s going to be viewed as as something against me less than and when we’re in these competitive environments, that that matters, you know, people worry about these things. So when you have a culture that says it’s okay to not be okay, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to not come to work on time, That doesn’t mean it’s not okay to get your work done. Mm But if you can have that dialogue, if you can promote that kind of environment, not only are you going to get better quality output out of your staff? But there’s a loyalty component there. There’s absolutely loyalty component. If you truly care in my moment that I need that care, I’m a less likely to feel alone and therefore continue down a negative slope. I’m more likely to be receptive to help because I’m already taking some from you. So now when you suggest that maybe I might need additional help to manage those issues, I’m more amenable to that. Um, and at the end of the day, I mean, who doesn’t, who doesn’t like when they feel validated and important?

[00:26:36] Evan Francen: Right? No, you didn’t. It’s tough man. This is this is a great conversation because you know, nothing that I struggle with and I don’t know if other people too, but on the workload thing, burnout thing. Um it’s a trust thing to, for me sometimes, you know, I feel like I what if I just, if I just let go for a week for a day for a couple of days, well, stop, fall apart. You know, I mean, can I actually disconnect from my phone from my computer for a period of time and believe that the world will end. I mean that’s a tough, it’s a tough thing for me. I went through with that far, secure uh that company got to a point where it was for sure enough to where I had a management team, but I still remember like it was yesterday, the first time I stepped away for a week and I was I actually had anxiety, had more anxiety not being there than I had when I was there. Because I didn’t I thought it was gonna fall apart and then when I came back, it didn’t fall perfect. I was like, all right, I can actually trust this thing. It isn’t going to fall apart. So then the next time I took this time off, I didn’t have the anxiety no more. Mhm. You know what I mean? It was like, you have to take this sometimes you have to take this leap up straight to bother youth and it’s going to be okay, you know, whatever, okay is I mean, what’s the definition of? Okay, I don’t know what’s the what’s the definition of normal?

[00:28:33] Ryan Cloutier: Depends on who you’re talking to? Uh Yeah, well, it’s interesting that you say that because I’ve always had the philosophy that if it falls apart when I’ve gone away, that’s not good. Nothing should ever be single threaded. You should be able as a, as a, as a healthy company, even if you’re not mature, you should Always be able to weather a 3-5 day window of any given employee, not being around and if you can’t weather

[00:29:04] Evan Francen: that, but then, you know what your mind tells

[00:29:06] Ryan Cloutier: you,

[00:29:07] Evan Francen: this is what my mind tells me. Did I build a good company.

[00:29:12] Ryan Cloutier: You know what my mind tells me, How much mess do I have to clean up when I get back? Because as I came up in the corporate realm, any time I took a vacation I always came back to a steaming pile, there was never, it was like for that week or two weeks of vacation, everybody just went whatever it is that we don’t want to do where they’re signing it to him because he’s not here to say no and we’re not going to do anything that he expected us to do while he was gone. So he still has to deal with that when he gets back. I don’t, I don’t think that was maybe intentional, but that seemed to be the right and anyone I’ve ever talked to talk to them that monday Tuesday after they come back from vacation and they’re like, oh dear God, why did I ever, why did I do this to myself? Right. I think that’s part of our competitive, aggressive workaholic type american work culture um which I also think is a contributor to the opportunity for mental health incidences to get worse. And if you’re not, if you’re not addressing it early on, if you’re not doing that self care, if you’re not taking a few minutes to stretch or get that run in or whatever that thing is you need to do pet the dog, you know, spend a little time with your dog pendants, had to be an amazing stress reliever and and if that’s not working for you, then having a colleague around you who can observe and clearly see a change in behavior and reach out and say, hey, are you okay? Can I help? I’m here to listen. Do you want to grab a bite after work? Not here to solve, but I’m not here to fix. That was one of the really important things we learn. We are not as as certified mental health for say folk, we are not diagnosing, fixing or solving. That’s not our role or purpose. That’s what professionals are for, were there to be a bridge to, to help that person know that they’re not alone. Which is so important, so important, so many of us feel so alone even in groups, so so touching on that, letting them know and in listening with purpose, you know, not listening to respond. Not listening, you know, and just kind of nodding along like a bobblehead, but truly listening. Just that act alone could be the deciding factor that could, that could be all that they needed to get through that moment and say, you know what, I’m grounded again, I’m back to back to a healthy place. Um so the more able you are to identify that I think the quicker you can help people,

[00:31:55] Evan Francen: You love that man. It’s uh I’m talking with you tonight after having that training yesterday, reminds me of things that were mentioned right? As you just mentioned, a really, really, really important point. There are times, it’s not time to fix things. There’s times where it’s just time to listen without judgment. You know, let people lay it on you. And I mean, how much calls and I mean, I know from my own personal, you know, and this is where I want to go next. It’s just personal stuff. Um how how therapeutic it’s been for me, just lay it out. This is what I’m feeling, I’m pissed off, I’m depressed, I’m whatever I’m feeling. And just to have somebody listen in love don’t fix it because you can’t fix it. That’s that’s the thing, You can’t fix it. So you trying to fix it just frustrates me more. Mhm. I just want to hear, I just want you to know, I want you to care. Show me you care. That’s it now, right? And it improves the overall quality

[00:33:13] Ryan Cloutier: of your work place and you know, I I bring this up and Evan and I were talking about this before we started the episode. You know, isolation, right? Uh Most of us have never ever been this home this much. Um the the amount of time, you know that we’re spending working alone. You know, I I’ve I’ve started to do this accountability buddy thing where um you know, I’ll have a a person in chat and we’re just working, we’re both working silently in different parts of wherever we are in the universe, but I know they’re there and they know I’m there and that that helps me to feel more like I’m working in an office setting. Yeah, I was always in my cubicle doing my thing and they were in their cubicle doing their thing, but there was just something about being together. And so with Covid and all the work at home stuff, mental health has never been more important to focus on. More. People today are experiencing their, you know, once, once in a lifetime or or you know, at some point in their lifetime, one in five of us or I’m sorry, one and two of us over the total span of a lifetime will experience a mental health issue entering Covid. Yeah, I would say that maybe is even a little higher, so many people are struggling because of the condition of the environment exacerbating those, those mental health concerns

[00:34:44] Evan Francen: a good point, man, it’s definitely that worse. And I don’t think we realize or willfully realize the impact for quite some time. Uh you know, there were starting to see some studies about teams and, you know, because those are such formative years or you’re forming so many social structures that help to form their identity. Yeah, right. At the age of, I mean, I’m 50 years old, I pretty much have my identity. It’s not going to change much, it’s been four months since, you know, Early 20s the latest, but that generation, sadly uh is lacking a lot of that identity thing because they don’t have that physical interaction with people. You rely on other people, believe it or not, no matter how individualistic you think you are, you rely on other people to form your identity to a large sentence, they tell you things like, oh, you’re good at that, you’re not so good at that, or, wow, I really, really impressed with that. It’s those things that you get feedback from people, health reform, Oh, you said I’m good at this, I’m going to do more of that. Right? Right. Uh yeah, it’s gonna be interesting to see how that’s going to, I think it just stresses more are the importance of fighting the, the uh the stigma talking more openly about it, there’s nothing that I want. Yesterday was there’s this misconception that if I talk about it more, I enable it for. So, if I talk about suicide often, or regular lease, you might think that this is enabling or justifying or maybe pushing towards such a behavior when the opposite is true. Yeah,

[00:36:47] Ryan Cloutier: now that was an eye opening thing, right, Is, yeah, you cannot put the idea in somebody’s head, right, That’s the simplest way to say this. There is no amount of words that you can put together, there is going to put the idea of someone committing suicide. Someone or someone, uh, you know, taking their own life, you you can’t put that in their head. It’s either there or it’s not there. So nice talking about it. You’re not causing it, but you absolutely can prevent it. Yeah, that’s there is no harm, right? It’s a no harm thing. You’re not going to cause anyone to kill themselves by asking them, are you thinking about killing yourself? But you can stop them by helping them to identify that by helping them to, because, you know, until it gets set out loud, sometimes it’s not even real. So by them saying yes, I am thinking about that, that that could be that moment that goes, wow, I’m thinking about that, I need to get help. And so, having that conversation being brave enough, you know, and that’s the other thing too, that we learned. You know, you have to demonstrate some bravery, you have to be brave enough to have the uncomfortable conversation and and you know, maybe we’ll do another thursday night show one of these days about this. But it seems like our lack of uncomfortable conversations has led us to a really weird place.

[00:38:16] Evan Francen: No, I agree that well, and so let’s bring this down, let’s bring this to relevance. So, you know, because we can talk about it all the time, but unless it’s relevant to me, I can discount it, right? Whatever mental health. Yeah, I know it’s a big deal for you, right? But here’s the deal man I combined you and I Have about 45 50 years combined information security experience, yep. And I’m going to tell you, you know, they got on this truth. I have three people four, Excuse Me, People very close to me who are also in this industry who did take their own life and it hurts the world, not a better place. World was a better place when they were in it. Uh They struggled with different things. I struggled personally myself. I’m not I’m not afraid to admit it because I know that if I admit it that people will walk alongside me and help me to be better to be more effective to have this mission, right? This mission means everything to me professionally. I need to I can’t do this by myself. Uh So I’ve struggled myself even recently and uh you know a D. D. S always been a thing for me, squirrels everywhere all the time. I’ve got 50 things right now, 60 things right now on my task list, they’re all somewhere between 10 25% complete. Most people would be driven crazy by that. That’s my happy place, right? It’s weird. Here’s another thing that most people don’t know is I have depression issues from time to time the last. And I don’t I don’t know if it’s a it was just a moment in time or if it’s something deeper or longer. But you know when I was in Kent King who I was in Puerto Vallarta four weeks ago, my wife, My wife asked me, you know one morning did you sleep last night? I said I stop that shit. Just what happened? So I woke up in the middle of the night. I don’t know why but I was crying. I was sad. I was suppressed. I sat on the deck for three hours. All my eyes out and yes, I contemplated suicide. Uh huh. It is what it is. Uh simple. What are you gonna do about it? I said well I’m gonna get there. I don’t want to be here again. Even if I’m fooled into thinking that I will never be here again. I could potentially be here again. And I want to have the tools to be able to combat that. I want to have the phone numbers to call the people to talk to. Because what what would be the next step beyond that that night? I’ve never had it before. I’ve never had it since. And so you know, crap. What’s the next step? The next step would have been to do what it is. I was thinking about doing, right? And I haven’t shared that. I’ve never shared that with you. This is the first time you for.

[00:41:52] Ryan Cloutier: It is the first time I’m here yet. And I first and foremost, thank you. Yeah, thank you, thank you for being brave enough to talk about it, thank you for for you know, not just sharing it with me, but you know, sharing this publicly, it’s yeah, and you, you are doing the right things, right, it is talking to those that can help you and you know, I’m here for you and I will support you up to my ability and then you know, and you know, I’m going to advocate for and now that I know I’m gonna help hold you accountable to making sure that you are getting that in doing that and I can, you know, and I’ve been there, it’s been a very long time when I was a young man, I made an attempt on my own life as a young man had a lot of lot of trauma, lot of demons, trauma by the way, it tends to be a big cause of a lot of this stuff um and we all got some kind of trauma promise, if you’re brave enough to open the closet, you’ll find it, it’s their hiding uh and so I, I, I know what that feels like to be in that moment and I want to share with you that there, that moment can come and happen and go and as long as you’re aware and are doing the necessary things to stay aware of that, another day will come, the sun will rise, things do improve um and you know this on a spiritual level, right? The day will come the day will always come. The next day will always come. And so, um, I love you and I want you to continue to do the right things of, of talking about the seeking health, making sure you know, that you had it. You know, I, I’m just, I’m glad that you said that followed up with and I said, I want to go get the help I need and that’s the important part. That’s the important part. It’s making that effort to do that. The other thing we learned and this is very relevant right now. Yes. Most mental health challenges and issues are resolvable. It’s that they are resolvable very, very,

[00:44:16] Evan Francen: very, very two

[00:44:17] Ryan Cloutier: strategies medications therapies. There’s 101 ways to work through this stuff. And the majority of the time, 80 plus percent of the time, there are long term meaningful recoveries. You know, you can, it’s just like any other illness. That’s the other thing we learned. So talking about stigma for a second, right? It’s not the Evan is broken. That’s not it. Evan has an illness that then who you know, has symptoms and we wouldn’t judge anyone for having cancer. We don’t run around wagging our finger. Cancer patients telling them shame on you and your tumor. You can, you can think your way out of that tumor. You can, you know, you can tough it out, you can push through it and and magically the cancer goes away. We know that’s not how it works. So we don’t even go there. A matter of fact, you probably heard me if you heard me say to a cancer patient, hey, shame on you for having cancer. You will probably all look at me like I was the worst person ever. But we, we do that with mental health. We make people feel that or weak.

[00:45:23] Evan Francen: You say, well, here’s how I feel right now. Number one, I’m grateful for my life. She asked, she asked, seemingly simple push, How did you see last night? What it showed me was that she cared. She asked me because she cared. So I felt comfortable telling that I didn’t sleep up and then she asked me why, right? I felt comfortable because there was a level of trust. Now I have somebody in my life and you, you’re another one, john Herman is another one brad. I will you Young security podcast is another one. I, I, I’m very, very, very, very blessed to have people in my life. But I can share these things with that won’t judge me. That will help me. Right? And the reason why I’m sharing is not because I want anybody simply I don’t care. I don’t want anybody said I have the support. I, I truly do. The reason why I share because this resonates with you call me call Ryan call anybody you the lie is that nobody gives a shit. That’s a lie. There are many, many, many people who do give a shit another why is that? The world will be better off without you. Another lie will will not be better off without shoes. I was going to talk about these four men that I lost in my life in this industry. These are security, but I lost the world is not a better place for them without them. Sorry. You know, one was, you know, Robbie every talk I give, I mentioned rob me, I miss abby. It was the one part in the conversation yesterday in the training where I did start to cry because this is a man who had so much potential use a beautiful, beautiful human being. I have no idea what God was going to do in his life. Had no idea what God was going to, how God was with museum to help other people. What I know is that Robbie had a beautiful art probably was just an amazing person and he bought into the lot somewhere bought in that nobody cared, you bought in that. Nobody would listen. Oh, you know, and then you live with that guilt and I’ll just, I’m gonna get, I’m gonna get faith the with you. But you know, you know me man, that’s cool.

[00:48:05] Ryan Cloutier: Oh yes. All

[00:48:06] Evan Francen: right. So there’s guilt in their shame. I’m sorry guilt and conviction, guilt comes from satan conviction comes from God. The reason why that’s so important for me to remember is guilt tears you down, guilt makes you beat yourself up. So when somebody close to you does take their own life, guilt is the thing that says, well, I couldn’t have done something, you know? Did you miss a sign? Uh no, you might be to blame for this because you didn’t step in when you should have stepped in, those are guilty. Thanks, say that bus the conviction pieces, what can I do to be better? How can I help somebody else? Not knowing what I know now, learning what I’ve learned, is there somebody else that I can walk alongside to improve their life? Is there somebody that I can love that isn’t being loved right now? Can I invest in a relationship with somebody? Because all of this comes down to relationships. When I look at somebody and what I’ve learned in all of this is I want to know your baseline. The only way I’m ever going to know your baseline is if I actually invest in you and learn you Yeah, right. The only I’m gonna learn you because I love, why would I give any time to you? So I want to know what your baseline and when I see a deviation from that baseline, why? Right? Why are you acting different than I remember you? Why are you acting different than what you’ve always acted? Something happened? The feeling sad about something, did you? You know? And when you just asked that question, hey man, what’s different, how are you doing? You know, because and then give them an example, give them an example like normally you kind of behave like this, this is how I see you today. I’m seeing you like this, explain to me why the difference because one that shows that I care two, it shows that you’re gonna have to help explain this to me. You have to give me a logical reason why this is different. You can’t just blow it off and say, well I’m just having a bad day. No man, I’ve seen this for the last week, this isn’t a bad day, Tony warren, you know? And so I don’t know man, I could preach about this because it really does hit home, you know, I lost property uh which you know the world sucks a little bit more without Robbie here. Uh You know my buddy Justin who was a partner at one time with that are secure, took his own life, hung himself in the garage. Uh Yeah man, I mean these are people that we need to do whatever we can I’m not going to live with the guilt. There are going to be more people who are going to commit suicide. It’s just a fact of life, I won’t feel guilty about it, I’ll feel convicted about it. What can I do to help or to love people more, you know, even like everybody chris roberts right? I’m not, I’m not diagnosing you by any means, but I know his baseline now, right? When I see a deviation from his baseline, I’m going to step in. Yeah, there’s a problem.

[00:51:38] Ryan Cloutier: It’s text. I mean, you know, and we and the nice thing is and if anybody listening, if you don’t have this in your life today, reach out okay, reach out. Seriously. The three of us have an accountability system in place. We are all very aware of each other’s mental health, we are all very aware of deviations in that baseline. And this is because we spend time checking in with each other and when we don’t hear from each other for a while, we check in with each other hey, how is it going? And we don’t ask that of each other as a platitude, We ask that of each other because we genuinely want an answer and if we get the blow off answer, I promise you there’s always the follow up text that’s cool. Be more specific. So, you know, and I know having that serves as a bit of an anchor for the three of us. I know it does.

[00:52:38] Evan Francen: Uh Yeah, so two things right to see what happens. two simple things that you brought up, who are you checking in with, who’s checking in with you? Yeah, I mean, how, how far would that though? It’s making life better you and for other people, you know what I mean? Are you checking in with checking with them regularly learn their baseline, what is their baseline invest in them enough to learn their baseline that’s love, right? And then when you check in, if it’s a deviation from that baseline why? Right? There’s a reason things don’t happen without a reason, a computer doesn’t do something, somebody telling you to do something same with people. People don’t do something with something motivated them something changed to make them do something different and they were doing before I have habits right? I have some bad habits. I stay sort of on that plane but there are times when you call me and I’ll be like Mhm absent minded man I’m just not paying attention to what you’re saying. Yeah or you asked me how I’m doing and I say fine but it’s not like you don’t do fine it’s more like fine.

[00:54:04] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah. And there’s and there’s times when I know just because I also live with the A. D. H. D. I know because of knowing your baseline. There are times when I know it’s just A. D. H. D. Rearing its ugly head and it’s not it’s not anything bigger than that. There are other times when you know and and in our relationship I’ve tried very hard not to be afraid of holding you accountable to better behaviors to checking in on that and keeping a check valve on right? And I’m going to continue to do that because I care right? Um, because that part is so important. And when we’re talking about mental health in the workplace, it’s, you know, I know you’re probably not going to get to spend the amount of quality time with, with most of your co workers and employees as the three of us get to spend with each other, um, as friends, but you can still spend some time, you know, I think of, I was in that training and I thought of a coworker of ours who shall remain nameless, who I know her and I have had multiple conversations over the time. I’ve been with the organization about that very thing. How are you doing? Really? And, and we’ve gone out and had some lunch is where if you were to eavesdrops on the conversation, you just wow heavy stuff they’re talking about over there. But it was good for both of us and it was, it was a chance to just to connect on that that level and you know, do I spend a lot of time with this person? No, but the time I do spend, I make it a point to make that time meaningful and, and not just surface bs, not just, you know, Yeah,

[00:56:01] Evan Francen: everything’s good. Uh,

[00:56:03] Ryan Cloutier: you know, so one thing I want to make sure we, we call out, get your pens and papers ready because you want this phone number. This is the national suicide prevention lifeline And it’s 1 800 273 8255 1 800 2738255. You’re not alone. If you can’t get a hold of anybody call that number someone will answer. They want to hear from you. They are interested in what you’re dealing with and they will help you to get the resources you need to make it through that mental health challenge and get up and and fight another day.

[00:56:51] Evan Francen: Awesome man. I love that. And their trains are specifically trained to help.

[00:56:57] Ryan Cloutier: Mhm. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:56:59] Evan Francen: So and I want to encourage people to oh uh huh. One put that phone number in your contact list right on your mobile phone so get out your mobile phone and positive you have to a particular over the time to do that. But put this you know call it whatever suicide hotline called hotline, call it whatever you want to call it, put that as a speed dial so it’s handy when you need it. So do that and then writes a that number one more time speaking.

[00:57:37] Ryan Cloutier: It’s up 1 800 2738255.

[00:57:47] Evan Francen: So yeah And truly do you help if we save one life through all of this? You’re talking through being open honest transparent with all of this. My God. Is that not worth the world?

[00:58:03] Ryan Cloutier: Absolutely. Is

[00:58:05] Evan Francen: how much how much revenue do you need to make to make up for that? Yeah,

[00:58:10] Ryan Cloutier: I don’t know you can put a number on

[00:58:12] Evan Francen: it. Exactly, bingo. And I remember when kevin, you know, get a lot of faith, right, Kevin who was a partner at fr secure, uh we’ve had a lot of conversations, but I remember the day he said to me, Evan, I’ve given my life to christ I was like one. So then I remember praying this uh huh. That was the point of all of this. Great, who’s the business? How much, how many dollars would are secure have to make? How many dollars would security studio have to make to pay for kevin soul? Mhm.

[00:58:54] Ryan Cloutier: It’s not there’s not enough dollars.

[00:58:57] Evan Francen: Great. So that was the point. It helps you to put things into perspective. The same thing happens with mental health, right? It’s dollars and cents grades. We use those things to do certain things. But at the end of the day, what’s really important is the person behind a human being. It’s a human being has dreams that has desires, that has hobbies, that has motivations, whatever they have the best time in those people. You know, it makes a difference society, I could preach all day about that subject. This has been awesome. This conversation with you because you and I have this level of I think relationship um we’re it’s more meaningful than just to talk about mental health, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, you know podcast inside your good friend of mine and I,

[00:59:55] Ryan Cloutier: you know, I value, I value real talk, right? Is as one who has dealt with mental health challenges before they were as acceptable as they are now and we still have lots of room to go. Um I I just it’s the genuineness and authenticity. And if there’s anything that is enviable or replicate herbal about anything you heard tonight, I hope it is the authenticity. It is the is the empathy your fellow human. You know, if you’re not there today, you will be at some point. So golden golden rule. Pay it forward however you want to say it. But taking that small moment to check in with somebody when you can clearly see their face says, I’m struggling here. I’m dealing with something, you know, strain paying whatever. That is a simple check in 30 seconds of your time could literally change their entire life and who knows what they go on to do, who knows what? You know, maybe they want to have a great kid that immense to cure for covid. So let’s let’s do everything we can to keep our fellow humans here with us.

[01:01:09] Evan Francen: I love it, man. And so to other things that I want to leave people. So we have you mentioned the phone number, get that into, if you have to rewind and go back, add that into even if you never use it, having it there when you need, it is super important. So adding the suicide, not lying to your phone. It’s a really important thing. Also check with your work. What is our employee assistance program? What is the mental health component in that? Is there something? Should there be something? Go check so check call HR Right we’ll talk to HR What do we have? You know if I wanted to go get uh therapy if I want to talk to a therapist, how much is that going to be out of pocket for me? Can I afford it? Get that stuff out of the way now so that when you need it, you know it? Right. Right. So that’s another thing I would encourage you to do. The third thing that I would encourage you to do is to go check out the mental health. Oh first aid program. Bring it up to your HR bring it up to leadership in your organization. We spend so much time at work all the time. You know uh more time at work probably than we do at home. In many cases I that means that I interact with people there. Right? I need their help. I need them If if anybody is going to know the baseline of me outside of my wife. Depending on my relationship. My wife with my wife is going to be my co workers. So encourage them encouraged management to go check out the mental health first aid certification. It was four hours very very very well spent for me personally. So there’s three things that I’m asking you to do. Yeah. So that’s that, uh, anything else said about myself before I get to just kind of will brush the news super quick. I don’t want to spend any time really on them. I just want them to know that we know. And uh, you don’t find out one.

[01:03:28] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah. The last thing I’ll say about mental health is the majority of time. It is a recoverable thing. So don’t think you’re beyond help.

[01:03:37] Evan Francen: Never as long as you got breath in your lungs, you know, a pulse in your heart. You’re not being home. There’s time, Right? Somebody can help in somewhere. All right. So, let’s get to some news real quick. Uh, find the real here I’m on I’m on my ipad. So here, what you get, The first thing I’ve got is from the register. So the title is activists reached burqa to In view of 150,000 CTV camps and hospitals, prisons a testicle factory, even clouds flare. HQ. Uh, So, did you see this

[01:04:20] Ryan Cloutier: brian? I did, you know, and uh, I, what I found interesting in this is that, you know, once again, a super admin credential, what appears to be belonging to a disgruntled employee was not properly disabled, which then led to this. I didn’t see anything in this, that that was a sophisticated attack or any kind of novel technique or anything like that. It really was credential base. So once again, the fundamentals get us uh

[01:04:53] Evan Francen: Right. The basic and it’s always the basis and I and I agree that it’s not this is not sophisticated at all. This is default stuff

[01:05:02] Ryan Cloutier: truly. I mean they hijacked, you know, I mean if you’re going to have a super admin account, please use privileged access management for it.

[01:05:14] Evan Francen: Right? Or how about we do security by design and we force you before you that as soon as you turn this thing on, you have to change this.

[01:05:25] Ryan Cloutier: Well, yeah, the issue that I saw was that it was, you know, it was the admin console that they used to manage these devices on behalf of these clients. Uh and it didn’t seem like they had really good privileged access controls around those accounts and making sure that, you know, when that what may have been a shared account? I don’t know that part hasn’t come out yet, but clearly was a account that had not been deactivated after an employee termination. I mean, that kind of stuff that’s really important to do that.

[01:06:02] Evan Francen: And the reason why this is a big deal is this is great. So one we’ve got numerous privacy violation. So imagine you being in the hospital and having a camera and having other people view these camera images of what you’re doing in the hospital or why are there the time that you’re there? What wing of the hospital you’re in, you can produce all sorts of things. It’s a great intelligence gathering piece for future attacks. So this isn’t like, Oh well, so yes, it’s not a big deal. It is a big deal. Uh, we need to do better than this.

[01:06:37] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah, absolutely. We do. And you know, we’ll see what the hippo lawsuit spring, but

[01:06:44] Evan Francen: you know, like Ocr ocr is so damn slow man. Uh five years, 6 years maybe

[01:06:54] Ryan Cloutier: they’ll get to it eventually. We

[01:06:56] Evan Francen: help at the second one I’ve got is from first post. This is a title is at least 10 hacking groups using Microsoft software flaw. Yeah, So 10 different groups are using uh, the flaw in exchange. So these are 10 different hats. These are 10 different hacking groups. Many, many, many, many, many uh, excellent tax here.

[01:07:28] Ryan Cloutier: Oh yeah, this is, I’m chalking this up to the ever growing what I’m coining the Microsoft mess. Uh, I think, you know, we see this happening and I’ve heard some pretty large and scary numbers about potentially number of impacted, you know, exchange servers worldwide. Uh, I think we’re going to keep seeing this. I mean, Microsoft had acknowledged a few weeks ago, their source code had been viewed um, potentially in its entirety. And so

[01:08:04] Evan Francen: waiting to see this Fran smith said that wasn’t a big deal.

[01:08:10] Ryan Cloutier: Oh well, you know, funny thing about cyber criminals and finding exploits in the source code that you can then

[01:08:18] Evan Francen: leverage. Right.

[01:08:20] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah, I think this one I think stays with us for a while. I don’t think they’re going to be able to get rid of this as quick as they want. I think they’re mainly because a lot of the organizations affected don’t even have fundamental patch management structure in place so to be able to react and respond I think is limited. You know, what’s interesting is this article mentions, you know that Norway’s parliament announced that they were, you know, had data extracted in a breach. They haven’t exactly said what that date is yet, but you know what, what I’m waiting to see what happens here is big governments have now been impacted by this, what’s what’s going to be the repercussion from this if any

[01:09:07] Evan Francen: wrong I guess, you know, kind of my thoughts, you know along those same lines is uh don’t think for a minute that this isn’t and there isn’t a line to be drawn between this and solar winds and others very much interacted right. There is a correlation here and we don’t know the exact details because there’s not that level of transparency breach notifications and things in our, in our country. That’s one thing. The second thing is, you know, I mentioned before in the senate testimony that was given in front of the intelligence committee a few weeks ago. Um mm I hope we don’t go down this path of how on more crap on top of this. Let’s actually try to address the problem. The problem is over complexity and so many different areas but yeah, come with them. This is not good. Uh huh. Last one I’ve got is kind of one of the same lines. It’s from Schneier on security And you know, I’m not really too much kind of maybe I am a sand boy. Yes, like the number one quote that I use which is complexity is the worst enemy of security so tons of respect for Bruce schneier but on his blog he says you know the title is more on the Chinese zero day exchange might start to change tack a great read. I’m not going to go into right now. It’s kind of along the same lines what we’ve been talking about.

[01:10:52] Ryan Cloutier: Yeah. You know my main takeaway from this one is zero days, right? The z I think zero days are going to keep rolling out a more aggressive pitch now than they have. I think coming up to this time and organizations, what I hope organizations take away from all this news coverage if you will is that things are speeding up the attacks are becoming deeper in the environment, easier to execute broader and scale nation state, yada yada yada. And the number one defense is still the number one defense the better you know your environment, the better you know what’s going on, the faster you can cut off the bleed, the less likely you are experienced catastrophes, businesses need to refocus back in on those basics, Are we controlling privilege access. Do we even know what’s on the network last time something was patched. If you spend all the money that you’re spending everywhere else, just those activities, you’d reduce your risk footprint by over 50%.

[01:11:58] Evan Francen: Hey man, preacher, blah blah,

[01:12:01] Ryan Cloutier: whoa.

[01:12:03] Evan Francen: Book. All right, well that’s good. We’re gonna wrap it up seriously great talk man. This was the, almost like it was all day. This was the right time for us to have this talk. Uh, and I’m hoping that there are, there’s a listener out there, gets the, I needed to hear this or I know somebody might be struggling. I can help. I can step up. I don’t have to feel intimidated about talking about difficult subjects. So awesome. Couldn’t have been better in my opinion. Thank you.

[01:12:39] Ryan Cloutier: Well, thanks for having me on

[01:12:41] Evan Francen: Danny shout outs to the sleep. Normally we do shout outs at the end of the show. Anybody who comes to mind right away. I want to give a shout out to,

[01:12:49] Ryan Cloutier: I want to give a shout out to brad. I know I know busy, I know he’s busy doing this thing, but I want to give him a shout out, give a shout out to my buddy bob.

[01:13:03] Evan Francen: Nice. I have a funny, I’m going to send you pictures tomorrow. I bought two t shirts actually bob butter t shirts and I bought a t shirt and I’m gonna send you a picture of it? I think you’ll find find it funny.

[01:13:18] Ryan Cloutier: Nice t shirts when you get back. I still have your christmas, I have.

[01:13:27] Evan Francen: That’s funny you

[01:13:28] Ryan Cloutier: into your christmas in july at this point, jeez

[01:13:31] Evan Francen: right when I have a shout out or I’m going to give a shout out to the security studio team, I’m never shout out to you for stepping up, taking care of things being accountable. You know, holding me accountable, that’s very, very important. I need that. You know, every leader, I don’t give a shit change my way, which I don’t care how tough, how powerful, How strong are smart you are is I’ve conquered many mouths, huh? You still need somebody to hold you accountable. The only way they’re going to be able to do that is if you’re transparent, if you’re vulnerable, so go ahead and the marble. So I want to give a shout out to you and I also want to give a shout out to, you know, just, you know, I give it, just shut up to Justin Gilbert. Uh, he’s somebody at security studio who how’s the phones all the time. You know, such a great advocate for our partners Bought him 100% mission. Just had a really good, I think victory today. Uh, so shout out to him. I really did.

[01:14:43] Ryan Cloutier: Absolutely. He’s, he’s doing really good.

[01:14:47] Evan Francen: Yeah, so much love to that dude closing. So thank you to all listeners, send us thanks by email if you feel so inclined. Un security of proton mail dot com. Honestly, you can check it once every couple weeks. But that’s Branson. Not mine did you say? Uh, otherwise socialized with us on twitter. I’m @EvanFrancen Brad is @BradNigh uh Ryan is @cloutiersec.

[01:15:27] Ryan Cloutier: You did. You spelled it right.

[01:15:29] Evan Francen: Hell yeah. And it’s almost one o’clock in the morning here. So thank you Evan other twitter twitter handle handles. We always struggle with the post. Honestly, every single time other twitter handles where you can find some of the stuff we do. Un security obviously is @UnsecurityP security studio is @StudioSecurity and @FRSecure. That’s it. We’ll talk to you next week. Thanks