Unsecurity Podcast

Evan and Brad discuss the impact of the novel coronavirus COVID-19 on the world, Evan’s experience last week on a cruise and returning home, new information security concerns with COVID as a result of the changes during the pandemic situation, and the importance of remaining calm and avoiding the panic during these turbulent times.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:47] Brad Nigh: you? Uh, good. All things considered.

[00:00:50] Evan Francen: Yeah. Right. The world is uh, so you saw my shutting down. Yeah, it, uh, it was the twilight zone.

[00:00:58] Brad Nigh: It had to be very bizarre.

[00:00:59] Evan Francen: It was crazy. But we’ll talk about that in a little bit. Um, you’re good. It’s good to be back. Um, but yeah, I guess we can catch up a little bit. What was last week like for you?

[00:01:10] Brad Nigh: Uh, it was interesting because you know, it’s probably a pretty universal thing. We started the week off with. All right, well, we’ll just keep an eye on it and see what happens and then by friday, all the sports leagues that shut down and yeah, well, here we are, You know, recommendation of no more than gathering to no more than 10 and cities and quarantine lockdown. It’s crazy. Yeah.

[00:01:36] Evan Francen: So you, you did read my twilight

[00:01:39] Brad Nigh: reference. I thought it was pretty amusing. Right up. I can see how that would be very surreal to be like, hey, believe and there’s this thing that’s might be kind of sort of happening and then coming back to, You know, 75, of flights are being grounded. And

[00:01:59] Evan Francen: Yeah, I mean, it was, it was crazy because when I left, it was the fifth or maybe four March. So like 12 days ago and we were gone for 10 days. So, and when we left, the coronavirus obviously has been around since December. You know, we knew about it, We knew that there were things happening and uh, you know, knew about cruise ships. We were going on a cruise. So we had heard about the princess, you know, some of the princess stuff. So, you know, we thought we were fairly well prepared when we got to the cruise terminal, This is in long beach California. And uh, arrived at the, at the cruise terminal and everybody just standing around like, what the hell is going on? And uh, you know, so rumors start to fly. People want to just make up stuff. Um, but then we find out that somebody on the previous cruise got sick. And so they were not allowing anybody to get off the ship that we were supposed to be getting on until that person, I got tested as, you know, and found to be the test to be negative. So, You know, we sort of found out firsthand that even in an emergency situation like this, we’ve got 4000 people stuck on a boat. Um pulling all the strings possible. It still took, I don’t know, 12 hours at least to get the test results back. So that ended up happening. So we we we thought, you know, the cruise is probably going to get um canceled. You know, we’re like, well let’s just rent a car and drive down to Mexico and you know, we’ll we’ll make the best of it. Well they didn’t cancel the cruise instead. They, we still didn’t have, we still didn’t know whether this person was gonna, you know, we didn’t know the test results. So carnival, who was the cruise line uh said, well if you get a hotel room tonight Will reimburse you up to $200. Right? So yeah, So we waited at the cruise terminal before we got that news, we waited there until about 8:00 and then we got that news and so then we just packed up and headed to a hotel, spent the night in the hotel. I got up in the morning and had a text from carnival saying good news, the results were negative. Um And yeah, we’re going to just cut the cruise short a day. So like awesome. That’s, you know better than nothing. Yeah. Um But yeah, I mean everything was just sort of weird from that point on. So we got on the cruise ship on sunday instead of saturday. Um And then I you know I love doing cruises because it forces me to disconnect even if you buy the internet package which I do, it just stinks. So why even waste your time.

[00:05:06] Brad Nigh: Right. Yeah. Not not the greatest.

[00:05:09] Evan Francen: Yeah, but you know I give carnival a lot of credit man. The uh they had hand sanitizers everywhere. You weren’t allowed. You know even in the buffet buffet lines they had somebody from carnival there to get the food for you so you can touch utensils. You know it was just very

[00:05:25] Brad Nigh: very taking those precautions. That’s good. Yeah

[00:05:28] Evan Francen: it was really good. You know the cruise was fun everything and then you get kind of back into port and I start you know kind of reading everything like holy crap what happened? All right, everything went to hell. Yeah. I couldn’t get toilet paper I heard in couldn’t you know buy food and couldn’t get sanitizers. I was like what the world is going on with people

[00:05:49] Brad Nigh: even now it’s like you know there’s no Tylenol, there’s no cough medicine

[00:05:57] Evan Francen: and so I started you know just doing math and like how many people actually are infected and at the time it was you know it’s increased significantly I think in the just in the last three days but it was You know like maybe 3000 people at the time and so you do the math and it’s like .0003 of the US population like, you know, I don’t know. It’s just, it’s weird. It’s just weird.

[00:06:24] Brad Nigh: Yeah. This is a, this is a really unique situation and that it seems to be a vast majority of people that get it are asymptomatic or right or don’t have symptoms for 5 to 14 days. So, and now we’ve got a testing issue where they don’t have enough tests and so what, what are the real numbers is kind of right.

[00:06:48] Evan Francen: We don’t know. Yeah, Yeah, that’s true. And even the numbers coming out of uh you know, china, you read that essentially the outbreak has sort of stopped there, but it’s a communist country. Is that information? You’re getting correct

[00:07:04] Brad Nigh: one and then they basically just shut down and they force people to stay home, which is a lot more difficult in other countries. But you know, you’re seeing in italy and spain these things are certain it’s log arrhythmic.

[00:07:22] Evan Francen: Yeah. But you know, it’s just the thing that, that really struck me as being just insane was the panic. I would agree. You know, panic never helps anybody. You know, use common sense. You know, you and I right now we’re recording this studio recording this podcast in a studio, But we’re what, eight ft away from each other right now we moved to another room. So they could be more separated

[00:07:49] Brad Nigh: and we have people walking by the windows making faces they come in now are they? You know you have your back to it. So yeah

[00:07:56] Evan Francen: I don’t pay attention you know that

[00:07:59] Brad Nigh: but yeah no it’s it’s uh it is interesting is that people said saw it and did panic. It’s like the supply chain is still there stores are getting restocked. Do you really need five packs of however many roles of Costco toilet paper? You’re never gonna need toilet paper again?

[00:08:22] Evan Francen: Yeah I get that people you know get you know they fear the unknown but I think people sometimes just lose the ability to just think you know just think it through for a minute. You know if I wash my hands and I stay appropriate distance away from people if I if I noticed somebody and you said you know a vast majority are asymptomatic but we don’t even know what a vast majority is yet. It’s still so early on in the whole process. And the thing that kind of weird me out is this isn’t the first time we’ve had a pandemic. It was only 10 years ago and I know it was something totally different. This is a coronavirus that was you know the H. One N. One. But it came up from Mexico. There was I think it In this 2009 2010 660 million Americans were infected and 12,000 Americans died

[00:09:17] Brad Nigh: right. Yeah it’ll be interesting and it is surprising that that the memory seems to be so short about, hey, we survived that, you know, yes, it was disruptive but not into the world.

[00:09:35] Evan Francen: Yeah. So where we sit right now is we have 4794 4743 cases Nets media reported officially confirmed as 4,396 cases. The number of deaths is 92. So if you put that into context with the United States population of 330 million those numbers, you know, even though one would be significant, those numbers themselves are not all that significant and the greater context of things. But like you said, the scale, it’s still going up right. When you look at the plot, the graph of the number of cases you needed to somehow even out, you know, and start to come down right.

[00:10:25] Brad Nigh: Yeah. And I mean if you look, this is where it gets kind of, that’s scary where we want to flatten the curve and it’s not that people are gonna, you know, be overwhelmed by it. It’s the health care system of those, that small percentage that do have a severe reaction. That small percentage is still a big number

[00:10:42] Evan Francen: well. And you talk about health care. So if I, if somebody were sick with the corona virus, there’s a big load on the system in terms of getting tested, but there’s no cure. So they essentially send you home and quarantine unless you’re listen high risk. Yeah. You need yeah, sick. But you know, 80, of the symptoms of people who are showing symptoms are mild, it’s only 20% have severe sam’s, you know, so if you just kind of think it all through, it’s like, I’m probably not going to die. Neither are you just not from this anyway, we are all going to die. But uh I don’t know, it’s just um I get it take proper precautions, you know, where we’re taking proper precautions here at work, we’re taking proper precautions at home and I live, I don’t mind, you know, closing down big group gatherings and you know, all that other stuff. But what I it’s just the kind of the premise of fear under that’s It’s the undercurrent of all of this, right? We didn’t have this in 2009, and I things are so much different. I don’t think the media did this a good job here.

[00:11:59] Brad Nigh: No, well, and I think it’s partly because right, it is this exponential growth instead of a a slow curve up or it’s kind of predictable. It’s

[00:12:11] Evan Francen: like that’s my computer.

[00:12:14] Brad Nigh: But yeah, like from the 13th there was 2100 cases and in four days it’s doubled. Right? I mean that’s significant. Sure. And I think it’s this unknown that that is worrying people.

[00:12:25] Evan Francen: Uh what did the log arrhythmic curve look like an H one n. 1.

[00:12:29] Brad Nigh: I you know I actually did see that and I can’t remember where it was looking for this morning.

[00:12:35] Evan Francen: Wonderful if it was similar to this one because we talk about mortality rates as well and it’s way too early in the outbreak to even call out what a true mortality rate is.

[00:12:47] Brad Nigh: Right. Yeah. We don’t have enough Data now in China and Italy and Spain somewhere somewhere. Some of the places where it’s been a little bit further and there’s more testing. It does seem to be kind of in that 3-4% range from what I’ve seen. Um Which is you know it’s a significant number but

[00:13:09] Evan Francen: I just don’t remember an H. One N. One us tracking it like this. I don’t remember scoreboard. I don’t remember, you know I don’t remember any toilet paper outages. I don’t remember. I don’t think they closed down schools. I mean I don’t remember any of this.

[00:13:26] Brad Nigh: Yeah it is it is very very strange. Um You know and I don’t know it shows how fast the world has changed and You know 10 years even. Right.

[00:13:40] Evan Francen: So what does this mean for us? What does this mean for information security in your opinion?

[00:13:45] Brad Nigh: I think the biggest thing we’ve seen is how unprepared companies have been to handle remote work and you know I think well that’s where we’re pretty lucky uh in our business model is you know we’ve been that we’ve promote work flexible work. You know, hey, work from home, if you want so, you know, for us, it’s, well, this is what we were, how we built the organization come into the office, we’d love you to be here. But if you work better from home works better from home, we have the things in place. And I think what we’re seeing is that the vast majority of companies that have been like, nope, nope nope, are now absolutely scrambling and unprepared.

[00:14:29] Evan Francen: Yeah, I’ve seen that too. And you know, and just improper messaging. You know, most companies don’t have business continuity plans, so they don’t have, you know, what’s the process for handling a pandemic. And even those who do have business continuity plans, they write pandemic stuff in there, but most of them don’t have anything of substance in it. So, uh and I think including, you know, probably if our secure, you know, we met as a management team and talked through, what is the proper messaging, what is the prudent thing to do? Um but one of the things you don’t really want to be in a pandemic is being outlier, meaning somebody who isn’t going to take this seriously and just going to say no, everybody still come into work and, you know, business as usual, because then when something, if somebody did by chance get sick, you’re in big trouble.

[00:15:25] Brad Nigh: Yeah, let’s see if that’s true. Um Yeah, I think well, and and what we’re starting to see is that the younger people that, you know, the reports are all elderly or health, you know, your underlying health issues. But when you start actually um doing the testing and you know, there’s been some initial testing out there, it appears that the younger people are actually carrying a higher viral load and showing no symptoms. So you’ve got these 20, some things that are going well. I’m not, I feel great, I’m fine, right? But they’re actually contagious at the time. So I think that’s kind of the unknown.

[00:16:11] Evan Francen: But you know, then you start to get sort of like freaky because I think we’re all carrying something at some point and you know, kind of at all times. So it’s like germs or germs and there’s always been germs and we all carry germs and you know, what point do we start getting really, really paranoid? And just the one thing that I fear is our world has gotten so much less social overtime right now, everybody’s online, People spend less time together, gather talking, you know, face to face stuff and now, you know, we’re almost through this pandemic, we’re being forced by the pandemic to isolate and use online stuff and I just hope it goes back once this is, you know, that curve comes back down again. I’m hoping we can try to get back to being more social. I hope this doesn’t just continue.

[00:17:05] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it’ll be interesting. I think it’s gonna from a, from a business perspective and security, you know, I think it’s going to change how businesses do work. Right. And working on, how do you do allow remote being more prepared for remote work? We had a question come in yesterday from one of our customer clients that ask and said, hey, for VPN, can we use split tunneling? Because we’re worried about the internet load. I’m like, no, I mean you can, but yeah, are my, our advice is, please don’t. If you do, you know here, your risk, your opening up on how many, you know, connections into your internal network from unknown networks across whatever the users are doing from home and then, you know, so you better segment that VPN ingress point isolated and have all kinds of controls in place and monitor the heck out of it. Are you prepared for that or do you just say, hey, we’re gonna have to pay for increased internet while this happens?

[00:18:21] Evan Francen: Sure. Yeah, that’s a risk. So I suppose just like every,

[00:18:26] Brad Nigh: you know, but it’s those things that people never considered, so you’re, I think you’re gonna see a lot more of, of those types of things happening and sure,

[00:18:36] Evan Francen: well, one of the things, you know, we had a management team meeting yesterday and you were in another one, but in the executive leadership team meeting, we talked about, well, what does this mean for the business, what does this mean long term, um, you know we expect the, it was interesting the word that was used was fallout? So And you know is one of the other executives and said we expect the fallout to last 12-18 months. So I kind of spoke up and said why followed? I mean do information security needs and requirements and things go away because we have a pandemic, if anything it becomes worse. Yeah, because people now are distracted rightfully so by the pandemic, by the bad things that are happening there and so they’re less paying attention to the details, paying attention to the security stuff and we also, you know, it’s almost like a perfect storm because we also have a significant increase in the number of attacks that happened during things like this. And the fact that we’re pushing people out to remote when we haven’t ever accounted for some of these employees working remote. So it’s like three things that combined make for a pretty bad scenario. Even if you do recover from the pandemic itself, you know, how many breaches did you have? How many other things did you encounter?

[00:19:59] Brad Nigh: Well, I think you’re going to see, yeah, it’s a shift in what we’re doing right short term. I think you’ll see more incidents you’ll see you know more consulting around, you know helping businesses make sure that they are better prepared and tightening up and you know a little shorter engagements to you know, do you know kind of are our infrastructure network architecture review or you come in and talk about, what do you have for logging, what are you doing for VPN and making recommendations? I think you’ll see a shift to more of that short term and then as things normalize right? I think we saw the president said expect that some of these controls to last into august, so I think through kind of august september, we’re going to see a shift and some of that stuff and then coming out of it, then I would expect there to be a big move forward with Okay. Yeah, we it’s gonna be a wake up call for a lot of companies. I think just because you don’t you don’t realize what the security impacts of something like this are going to be.

[00:21:17] Evan Francen: Yeah, I don’t expect, you know, I don’t expect a downturn in our business in information security because if anything, the threats have increased the risks have increased. It’s and it’s just like every other incident response, right? You, when a bad thing happens, you get a chance to control the message. Right? So what’s the message we would send to our customers two to prospective customers. It’s the same message, right? We’re a partner. We’re not in this to, you know, to find money to make from you, we’re in this to serve, you know, to to solve problems and so now you’re problems are just different problems, but you still have problems. Absolutely. You’ve got, you know, you may be an incident, right? If you if you’re not paying attention, yeah, we might see a significant increase in our incident response services. Um, we might see a significant increase in remote worker strategy movement. You know, something like that. We might see a significant increase in business continuity planning or disaster recovery planning, you know, so it’s just the needs might shift a little bit. But um, one of the things I don’t want people to do is, um, you know, take their eye off the ball. Certainly if you’ve already spent money on information security, you know, and then if you take your eye off the ball and they could all be just money pissed away if you’re not doing something about it.

[00:22:56] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it’ll be I think, yeah, basically interesting to see, you know, we all have, it’s on kind of in an unprecedented situation. So we all have our different kind of projections and opinions and thoughts on us and

[00:23:12] Evan Francen: write well. And when when there’s so much mass confusion, when there’s so much when there’s not a single message, when there’s not this, it’s a really good opportunity because I’ve done it enough in incident response is where the scope is different.

[00:23:24] Brad Nigh: Right, Okay. Yeah. All the

[00:23:26] Evan Francen: time. But the panic isn’t.

[00:23:28] Brad Nigh: Right. Oh, no, Absolutely.

[00:23:30] Evan Francen: And that’s what I’m saying is I get to choose the message to bring the panic in line with what I want you to do.

[00:23:36] Brad Nigh: It’s a good point. You know, I think with incident response so much of it is coming in and you’re working with people that are you know hair on fire. Oh my God we are down and being calm and kind of being in charge and reassuring and yeah, okay. That’s all right. Well let’s figure this out. Here’s our plan. We’re gonna do A B. C. And D. C. What that comes back with come up with a plan based on those results and yeah that’s a good point. It doesn’t it’s not maybe that’s why we’re not as concerned as this is something. Yeah we do all the time.

[00:24:16] Evan Francen: All right in the world continues to turn right. I mean it just does the fact of the matter is regardless of whether you like it or not, every day people are born every day people die. That’s just the way the world has always worked. It’s there’s waves. You know, I mean there’s been so many pandemics and so many things over the course of history and in the human race has always survived. Um Be

[00:24:42] Brad Nigh: smart.

[00:24:43] Evan Francen: Yeah. I mean I just prefer to use like let’s let’s think this through and that’s one of the things that’s gotten us through and made us so good at instant responses. I don’t I don’t know if anybody has ever seen me panic, I don’t know if I do panic. I mean if we got it in me. Yeah. You know I mean? It’s just like, wow. Alright, let’s deal with it. I mean, even the, you know, and I had cancer. You know, it’s like, aren’t you worried like worried about what dying? Yeah, I’m gonna die. I mean we all are right. Am I ready to die? Sure. You know, I mean, I have faith. I prefer not to. But I mean, I think I have a purpose here. That’s why I’m still alive. But I don’t know. It’s it’s just a different kind of mentality. I’ve been accused in numerous incident responses before of not numerous. Well, yeah 2 3 of leading an incident response and the customer saying to me, do you even care about this? Like what do you mean? Like you’re not showing any emotion?

[00:25:45] Brad Nigh: Well, yeah, I mean that’s what makes me good.

[00:25:49] Evan Francen: You know? It’s uh Yeah. And and don’t take my lack of emotion. Don’t take my lack of panic as not caring, right? I care deeply about people, but I’m just not going to freak out.

[00:26:03] Brad Nigh: Well, that’s the thing. Like our Our team wouldn’t be working till 4:00 AM and then back up. You know, somebody else’s up at five, right? If they didn’t care now, are they? Like panic. No, it’s hey, good morning. And here’s who you know, I’m gonna be your primary contact today. Here’s what we’ve seen overnight. Making sure you’re on top of things. I’m gonna check and see where we’re at. I’ll let you know if anything changes. Here’s our plan.

[00:26:35] Evan Francen: Well, I think so. If I were if I were a company, I am, I mean we are. But you know, if I was a normal company, like a small business, this is one of the things that really scares me. It makes me sad is that some small businesses won’t recover. No.

[00:26:53] Brad Nigh: You know, so just this, just when I was just saying that it clicked, you know, we’re talking business continuity and incident response about controlling the message. And I think that’s probably been a big piece of this is we haven’t had a consistent message from the top, well, right from politicians from, but even whatever it is.

[00:27:14] Evan Francen: And if you did the media in this case, but this up so bad.

[00:27:19] Brad Nigh: I wouldn’t argue that. But when you have different countries saying different things and different people within the country saying different things and contradicting each other, right? That’s why in an incident response, we say there’s one person responsible for messaging exactly. You know, you’ve got 50 people saying 50 different things. And now, right, that’s when you get all this confusion, you know, it is, it’s it were totally relevant to, you know, quote unquote real life and that’s what we preach in in an incident. Who is your contact? Who is your person that you’re going to have communicate internally and externally you have one person. Nobody else gets to say anything.

[00:28:01] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I think in the case of the pandemic itself it seems like there’s been and I want to get political, but it seems like from the administration there’s been a single message. It’s the message has changed but it’s been a single sort of voice I think where where it gets really funky is you’ve got so many inputs when you read the news and people aren’t listening to the administration anyway. They’re listening to social media, they’re listening to MSNBC or CNN or Fox News

[00:28:31] Brad Nigh: one and you’ve got this every state is saying different things and nobody is on the same page

[00:28:37] Evan Francen: I think. And I think there was some talk about the fact that I think trump president trump had fired the pandemic team at some point.

[00:28:46] Brad Nigh: Yeah, like 2018.

[00:28:47] Evan Francen: Yeah. So that probably

[00:28:49] Brad Nigh: that didn’t

[00:28:50] Evan Francen: help. I was probably bad

[00:28:51] Brad Nigh: timing but hindsight.

[00:28:55] Evan Francen: Right? So I think for a company, you know, my advice for a company would be survived. First of all you need to do whatever it takes to survive, right? So you may have to cut staff, you may have to um you know, I don’t know if,

[00:29:13] Brad Nigh: well I think you

[00:29:14] Evan Francen: know whatever it takes to live through it and then what what can you learn from it? So that the next time this happens because it will it maybe

[00:29:23] Brad Nigh: find some other way

[00:29:24] Evan Francen: But 20 years it’s going to happen again. What can you take and learn?

[00:29:29] Brad Nigh: Well, I think, you know, like I said, it’s it’s going to be a shock to a lot of companies that have held on to those. Yeah. You know, I don’t want to sound the old school right? Thinking, Hey, everybody’s butts in the seats from 8-5. Mm. And I think it’s gonna be, you know, well, like I said, we do remote work. Some we have some people that only come in, you know, well, we have people that work exclusively from home and we have some people that are local that only come in on monday’s for, you know, all of our team meetings and stuff. It works if you have the controls in place and you treat people like adults, Right? And I think it’ll be eye opening for that and be interesting to see what the follow it is. But yeah, I know there’s a lot of companies that that are like, well we have computers. Do they take our computers home? Do they work from their home computers? What do we do? And it’s like, well, yeah, those are two very significant risks that you have to different risks that you have to, the way, are you going to allow your machine into an uncontrolled environment where at least you can still patch it, you know, kind of what’s on it or do you let some unknown machine connected to your network and what do you have in place and I think that’s the biggest struggle that that a lot of these companies are dealing with is they are not prepared to, they had never thought of that stuff.

[00:31:03] Evan Francen: Yeah I agree. And the the uh you know on the old school thinking you know one of the things that I really miss about remote working is just a personal interaction, you can’t ever replace face to face conversations, you know seeing each other, you know facial reactions and joking around and having a good time and so hopefully when we go back to offices opening again, people don’t just alright, we’re just strictly be a remote office because you miss out on so much when I see you face to face it’s you know the traditional replacement for

[00:31:40] Brad Nigh: it. Oh I agree, you know personally I prefer working in the office. Right, I just I enjoy seeing the people can I work remotely. Yeah, it’s not a problem but yeah but everybody is a little different.

[00:31:55] Evan Francen: Yeah and we were trying to, you know and it’s you know all to to see where this ends up going at some point. But I always liked the the theory was and this was years ago to have monday be Canada the meeting days so everybody come to the office and we’ll have our whatever meetings we need and discuss things and then it be Tuesday through thursday where you’d be out working with clients working remotely whatever, you know, we all know what needs to be done and we just do it and then Fridays would, you know, if we worked really, really hard Tuesday through thursday Fridays, we could come to the office and play right, You know, have tournaments, Grace go karts and then kevin, you know, maybe get rid of them,

[00:32:36] Brad Nigh: you know, you

[00:32:37] Evan Francen: know, whatever. She’s my uh I gotta turn that stuff off. But I’ve been gone for a while.

[00:32:43] Brad Nigh: But yeah, I think, you know, it’s good you want the office to be a place where people want to come in and I think we do have that uh here it’s just mm that we got

[00:32:56] Evan Francen: to

[00:32:58] Brad Nigh: can

[00:33:00] Evan Francen: I did you just

[00:33:01] Brad Nigh: cry? I did. It’s okay.

[00:33:03] Evan Francen: You know, it’s funny, this is sort of funny, but when I was on the cruise ship I sneezed and everybody looked at me like, you know, they all took kind of step back. I said, you know, I just kind of yelled allergies.

[00:33:18] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I know I have allergies aside.

[00:33:22] Evan Francen: It’s

[00:33:23] Brad Nigh: been horrible. You know, that’s an interesting other social piece of this is right. I’ve had allergies. I’ve had them my entire life and this is the time of year where they start to pop up and it’s like I can’t call for public, people are gonna like beat me, you’ll be fine.

[00:33:40] Evan Francen: But all right. So um yeah, there’s a lot of information, security, I think implications with this. You know, one is people are distracted. People are And again, rightfully so, right. You have to protect your health, the health of your family that comes first. Um, you know, where does information security fit in all of this? Where does it fit as a risk? It is one. It doesn’t go away. Right. You know, it’s juggling priorities.

[00:34:07] Brad Nigh: And we know, I mean it happens every time there’s anything, any newsworthy thing, the Attackers are going to use it. We’re already seeing the increase of Phishing attempts and malicious websites. There was the one the guy stood up that had an android app. They were basically mimicking the johns Hopkins map website and then you would download a uh, an app on your android and it would encrypt your android, $100 for in Bitcoin to $100 to unlock it. Now, luckily, you know, some good researcher was able to reverse engineer it and without the decryption key for free. But you’re already seeing a huge spike in these types of things. And from a business perspective, yeah. Start, hey, be aware of these things. Get that message out there now.

[00:35:04] Evan Francen: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. So, um, working from home, we’ve gotten a number of issues that come up from an information security standpoint when we have to control the message. I assume that everybody’s going to have to communicate to their customers to their employees. So, you know, you talked about the way we do it in an incident responses. We make one person responsible for internal communications and another person or maybe the same person, but only one person or team um be approved to communicate externally. We follow that same process here. Um so you’re gonna have to figure out what your message is going to be. You know, you want your message to be factual, you want your message to be um as accurate as possible depending on who your audience is. You wanted to be transparent or at least come off as being transparent. That builds trust with the audience. Um Yeah, and you know, and you want the communication to be somewhat regular meaning as there are updates to whatever is changing your communicating that

[00:36:11] Brad Nigh: it’s reassurance to customers, you’re staying on top of it, you’re, you know.

[00:36:16] Evan Francen: Yeah, so your communication tips are in our communication to our customers was an email that I wrote a couple days ago. Yeah. You know, I wrote it, it went through, you know, a number of uh you know, revisions to make sure I didn’t say anything two offensive or whatever, you know, because there are days, right? I mean some days I write something better than other days, so it’s good to have, you know, have it go through an approval process even if it’s the ceo of the company who’s writing the message, there still needs to be an approval process, right? Um and then so we communicated to the customers, basically what we communicated is that we’re still here, we still care, we’re still working, we don’t see any disruption to our business will be able to, because we are built to work remotely. Um, so we’ll be able to service customers really, the only true service that we do that we can’t do remotely is physical penetration testing and things. So, and that’s such a small percentage of overall business and workloads. So that was the message Externally. The message internally, you know, came from, you know, john harmon or president, you know, sent a message, you know, sort of early on, which is kind of a reassuring message, Vinnie, our CFO sent one yesterday. I was thinking about writing one sometime maybe today or tomorrow just to, and my message is different. Right? So you’ve got john who’s kind of a bold leader kind of, right? And then you’ve got Renee, who’s kind of a detail, This is what we’re doing. Then you got me, who’s kind of a love you guys, You know, carefully if you need anything kind of message, but that’s one thing. So you get the message and then you have to continue the operations. Like you said, we are built for this. So it doesn’t affect us all that much for people who aren’t, who aren’t built for this. You’re going to have to adjust. You’re gonna have to figure out a way to continue. Uh, it depends on the kind of business you are if you’re a restaurant. God I feel terrible because all those restaurants in the state of Minnesota being closed at five PM tonight,

[00:38:23] Brad Nigh: is it? I think it’s just for dining though, so delivery and takeout, it’s going to be so disruptive,

[00:38:29] Evan Francen: right? It’s crazy. So, but you know, and if you’re a retail operation, you know, like apple just closed all their stores in china Um Nike and they’ve got, you know, $50 billion dollars in cash. So they don’t

[00:38:43] Brad Nigh: Also different them. You know, the flip side is you saw, I saw just something um yesterday Amazon is hiring 100,000 people and increasing pay $2 an hour because of the increase in orders, Right? So you’re gonna have, there’s going to be delivery services, there’s gonna be some companies and organizations that are going to kind of maybe step up and fill the gap of, you know, hey, we need people.

[00:39:09] Evan Francen: Yeah, but the S. And P. S don’t give a crap. I mean, it doesn’t help the guy who’s listening to the podcast. I know, okay, great. I’m glad amazon’s doing well, what am I gonna do?

[00:39:22] Brad Nigh: But it’s interesting to see that that variance. Yeah,

[00:39:26] Evan Francen: it bothers me a lot. You know, these S. M. B. S. R. Because that’s, that’s really the heartbeat of America, right? I mean,

[00:39:34] Brad Nigh: the majority of people are employed by

[00:39:37] Evan Francen: right and dreams. You know, you got people running these businesses who have, I’ve always dreamt about owning their business and you know, they open their business and they get it going and boom pandemic. Right? Seriously? Right. It wasn’t a bad, necessarily a bad business decision that did me and it was

[00:39:55] Brad Nigh: something completely out of my control. Yeah. Yeah. That’ll be interesting, you know, I think,

[00:40:02] Evan Francen: yeah, on what we’re going to do and what we committed to doing is doing as much as we can to help, right? So we’ll write as much content as we can, Right? That’s what we’re going to be doing beyond just our normal kind of workload is, you know, what are things that people would like us to provide guidance on and will provide it for free? Yeah. Right. Something

[00:40:23] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I know market has already been filling up my inbox like we

[00:40:27] Evan Francen: write well and I’m in that security studio were, you know, making s to me, I mean, as to me has always been free, but you know, as to me, the version two, which is gamified and, you know, mobile version, which is a personal information security risk assessment, which works perfectly for home users and home users. It’s the same habits that I use at home that I’m bringing into the office. So there’s a good benefit there. We’re also making us to team Free. Yeah. For at least the next 90 days. Okay we might make it perpetually free. I mean, if there’s a if we don’t need it, you know, for revenue. That’s

[00:41:06] Brad Nigh: very cool. I didn’t I mean that’s literally news to me right now. But I mean

[00:41:11] Evan Francen: the press releases going out today.

[00:41:13] Brad Nigh: Okay. That’s awesome. I would say right now any small business do that immediately understand where you’re employees are. Because then now you can understand where should you be focusing

[00:41:28] Evan Francen: your efforts. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because I mean if when the bad thing happens, which it will, it doesn’t matter how much how many precautions you take and how how great you do remote, you know, workers security things will still happen. But when that bad, one of the things you don’t really, I mean like a disastrous situation would be you survived through the pandemic business starts going again and then you find out, oh my God, we had a breach, right? And we didn’t do anything to really protect ourselves. So when the lawsuits come, we didn’t have anything. Yeah. That could be that could be a really bad situation. Yeah. And anyway, and it helps protect your employees, right? I mean, if if I’m the leader of a company and I know my responsibility isn’t just the viability of the company is the employees who work at the company. So I can if I can give them a tool that’s free that will help them protect their family, their financial situation at home. Yeah. Why wouldn’t I do that? Especially if it doesn’t cost me anything. So hopefully there are people listening that will use the s to me free as a benefit to their employees. And then leverage the information that you gather for these two teams so that you can make good information, security decisions and how to secure people at home, how to secure your assets.

[00:42:55] Brad Nigh: Yeah,

[00:42:56] Evan Francen: So

[00:42:57] Brad Nigh: that’s, that’s awesome.

[00:42:59] Evan Francen: Oh, thanks man. So the uh, what else? Okay, so remote worker strategy. Uh, yeah, I’m also creating some other stuff there. I think I’m working on now, kind of a document because one of another thing you don’t want to do is even if you’re a company that’s always had remote workers, Right? And so all you think you’re doing then is what we just have instead of 10 remote workers, it’s all 100 of our employees are now going to be working remotely or, you know, whatever. So, the, the reason why you don’t just want to stick with your traditional, well, just give him a laptop and a log in to the VPN. The reason why you don’t want to do that is one. These are employees that have never been remote workers before. Right? And so if if you don’t train them well, if they haven’t been through the process or whatever else, then you’re just exacerbating the problem. So the traditional approaches, just give my laptop, have them connect, maybe show them the policy, give them some canned training. All right, go for it. That’s not going to motivate them to actually care about your security, right? You have to put it in a way that they’re going to see their own benefit in it. That’s why that s to me is so important.

[00:44:14] Brad Nigh: Yeah. So yeah, I think Yeah. All right. Yeah. I know. I just did it. Uh it’s concerning. Yeah. Yeah. He said, yeah. People that I have never done this. Right? And, you know, yeah, we don’t know. Is there wifi wide open? Who else is on that network now? We know that happens a motet spreading via wifi. You know, there’s there’s a lot out there. That’s uh uncertainly.

[00:44:51] Evan Francen: Right? And so and truly, if you’re not sure if you’re not sure about are you taking the most important precautions? Ask somebody call us. You know, we don’t work like lawyers. You’re not going to get a bill. If you ask us a question,

[00:45:06] Brad Nigh: I’ll submit. You know, there’s a thing on the on the website. If you’re not a customer. If you are obviously if you try to whoever you’re working with. But if you’re not submit the request, we get those all the time. And it’s like, yeah, I do this or don’t like to split Tunneling, don’t don’t do split tunneling, right? I’m not going to charge you for telling you like a 32nd response of that’s a really bad idea,

[00:45:32] Evan Francen: right? And even if you want reference if you want. We’ll tell me why it’s a bad

[00:45:36] Brad Nigh: idea. We’ll

[00:45:37] Evan Francen: we’ll go pull that data for you to,

[00:45:39] Brad Nigh: you know, And that one came in yesterday and it was like, no, well, here’s why it’s a bad idea. It opens up your network to everyone. Right?

[00:45:48] Evan Francen: So the most important precautions, if you haven’t planned, it’s not too late, it’s never too late. You know, obviously it would have been better if you would have been planning prior to the pandemic and for being forced to do this stuff. But ideally you have a policy of some sort that outlines what the rules for the game are, so that everybody can reference the rules for the game. They’re not meant to be read, they’re meant to be referenced. So you have some rules for the game. You’ve got, you know, whatever technological method you’re using uh that you’ve given thought to it, right? You’ve done some, you know, design, uh somebody, you know, ideally somebody without, that’s not, you has, has looked at over the architecture of whatever remote access technology you’re using, um and you can really secure almost all of them. Right? So to say, well, you cannot only VPN that’s the only way, you know, to that will work successfully. Maybe, I mean, there’s some cloud services to that you could log into, you know, a lot of people now and move into anyway, there’s just lots of different ways that you can work remotely, You may not even need remote access uh beyond, you know, maybe email?

[00:47:05] Brad Nigh: Yeah. And, you know, that’s that’s a good question. Have you even considered what they need? Right. Does everybody actually need VPN or do they just need to know is do you work in a cloud service where it’s just like, okay, go to your this website and check your email and work in this application in the cloud. You don’t actually need to be on our

[00:47:27] Evan Francen: network. Yeah. And my biggest like my two biggest kind of things are never single factor authentication on anything remote. Right? So, you know, two factor authentication on everything remotely accessible. Number one, that’s that that’s that which you

[00:47:47] Brad Nigh: should have been doing

[00:47:47] Evan Francen: anyway. Right. And that’s non negotiable. I mean, just that is a must because those things are just asked to be fished or asked to be, you know, sprayed whatever. Um And the second thing is to make sure that everything is encrypted right in transfer? If you do those two things, those are those are

[00:48:07] Brad Nigh: must it’s me again, you know, I think, yeah, if you’re doing those things that you could, that’s that’s reasonable.

[00:48:14] Evan Francen: That’s the beginning, Yeah, I mean, there’s lots of other things that go into it, but yeah, those are probably two of the biggest ones from me. All right. So if you haven’t planned, well, it’s not too late, how can you use as to me and S2 team look for? Uh now that’s from security studio, you know, we I work out of our security and security studio. Um Security studio will be issuing a press release later on today about making S- two team free. So at least the next 90 days. Um as to me has always been free if you haven’t done. And as to me assessment before https colon slash slash s to me dot io is the website to go to. It’s free. All you have to do is register and do your thing. And when you register your not going to get spammed by us, we’re not those kind of people. We just truly want to help.

[00:49:06] Brad Nigh: Evan will run over whoever spams you with this

[00:49:08] Evan Francen: Truck. That’s right. Driving up to 50 men, right? I do brush guard is broken not from running somebody over.

[00:49:16] Brad Nigh: Right? I can’t put the disclaimer in there. Yeah.

[00:49:20] Evan Francen: All right. So that’s uh that’s kind of where we’re at pandemic. It will continue. This is gonna go on for a while and it’s not gonna be the last one. So, get your get your stuff together. If you don’t know how to get your stuff together, Call somebody talk to somebody who you trust, who is credible. Um and, you know, and that would be, you know, obviously it’s us, but, you know, anybody else, there are other information, security consulting companies and consultants practitioners who are trustworthy who are credible. Know what the hell they’re doing. Get in contact with somebody. Don’t don’t let this just kind of fester and expect it to go away. Right, ignorance is not going to solve this for you. You need you need to take care of it. So All right. So thanks for sharing and thank you for a great discussion sir, trap this up. I want to highlight two online discussions. I had the other day on about coronavirus. On twitter. Twitter is always a fun place to get into discussions. The first started with a question posed by a twitter user. The user said or asked, So, how are you talking to your Children about the pandemic? And I thought that was a great question. Um, excuse me, that’s not, that was, that was not that was not cry virus. Uh, but you know, how do you talk to your Children about this coronavirus?

[00:50:45] Brad Nigh: You know, I think you’re on the same page as I am were very open and frank with them about it. Right. What benefit is there to lie into them? You know, even our five year old, we found um, one of his uh preschool teachers had posted a social story, I think they’re called. So it’s basically like kind of pictures like almost like a comic right of what this means, what you do about it. And we’re just telling them here, here’s what we know, here’s how you can determine the truth and where to look and how do you read out? You know that hysteria from and panic from the real source of truth. It’s a good life skills they’ll need anyway. So we’ve been just very frank and up front with them and shared messages from the school to them and not even filtered. Hey, here’s the message from the superintendent. You know, we thought you were gonna do online learning, starting on Wednesday. It’s not start until April six, which as a parent goes, Oh dear God, what am I going to do for three weeks? But yeah, that’s a different story. But you know, that’s, that’s our approach. Just, we’re honest with them. Here’s what’s going on here is what we know. Here’s what it means. Yeah.

[00:52:06] Evan Francen: Yeah. It didn’t, it didn’t cause any disruption. You know, all my kids are grown up now except for the one, you know, 15 year old. Um, yeah, I mean it didn’t change anything. You know, we always told our kids things about, um, you know, specifically around, you know, coronavirus, you know, wash your hands, you know, cover your mouth. I mean those are things that we, we didn’t have to like, oh we have the coronavirus now. We should tell our daughter this. She really knew. Um, and and they know that the world is a dangerous place. That it’s wonderful. It’s beautiful. There’s great things. But yeah, there’s danger. Yeah. You know, another danger

[00:52:46] Brad Nigh: Last week when school was still in, we’re talking and it was like Monday or Tuesday they were asking about it. You know, the recommendation is to wash your hands like five times a day with soap for 20 seconds And it reduces your risk by like 40 something percent mm over one his 14 was like, oh, so I should just wash my hands between class. Yeah, don’t touch your face and wash your hands between class. Right? Alright, cool.

[00:53:13] Evan Francen: Yeah, it was a really a really long way and then fist bumps, you know, I’ve always kind of done fist bumps. Not because I was germ averse. I just thought it was easier. Yeah, I thought I have an excuse.

[00:53:26] Brad Nigh: I did see a funny thing on, on twitter, it was like, well maybe this pandemic will finally get rid of that disgusting ritual of the handshake.

[00:53:35] Evan Francen: Oh well you know that I like the handshakes because I learned handshakes as a sign of respect and where handshakes originally came from, it was to show that your hand didn’t contain a weapon,

[00:53:47] Brad Nigh: right? But now, you know, the follow up is I’m seeing all these uh because I would hate I mean I just

[00:53:54] Evan Francen: wash your hands. I hate and it makes me sad to think that handshakes will die.

[00:54:00] Brad Nigh: It will be interesting to see

[00:54:01] Evan Francen: what it’s like because we’ve just

[00:54:03] Brad Nigh: anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens, right? I think they probably will for a while.

[00:54:09] Evan Francen: Oh for sure that yeah, I’ve already seen that. Like I would I just do it at a habit. You know, sometimes I’ll just reach my hand out to shake somebody’s hand and there’s been a couple of times where people you know pull back and I’m like all right. And you know, we did an elbow bump. We didn’t even do a fist bump. They were that

[00:54:26] Brad Nigh: cannot. Yeah. Well you never know maybe have some immuno compromised person at home too. Right. So you gotta give benefit of the

[00:54:33] Evan Francen: doubt. Yeah. So the other you know message we had a head on twitter which I thought was sort of interesting um because I’m fairly you know I will engage on twitter. So if you are following me and on twitter it’s just at my name, Evan francine. Um Yeah another one, you know they were they were asking they were saying calling for everybody in politics to be removed from office or something like that and and you know, so that was to me it was very much a panic tiny type of thing. And so I just responded. I said did we have the same reaction went with H one N. One that infected more than 59 million americans and killed more than 12,000. It was only 10 years ago. And the reaction I got was not any type of open discussion because it was a legitimate question. I wasn’t I didn’t mean any offense by it. I wasn’t you know calling somebody out for being stupid, nothing like that. And what I got was blocked by the season. I was like well that’s not the I mean we’re all in this together. We need to have open dialogue. If somebody says something that you don’t agree with, you don’t just block them. I mean there are trolls out there too are just in it to be jerks. But you know in this case it was obvious I wasn’t trying to be a jerk. You know? Anyway, that’s sad when you see that don’t don’t be that person engage in discussion because there are plenty of opinions to about what’s currently going on and opinions should be heard as long as they’re respectful.

[00:56:10] Brad Nigh: Right? Yeah. And I think you know, I found the little article about the spread of the this compared to the others and yeah through like day 28 coronavirus is way ahead of like SARS or Ebola or murders or any of those other

[00:56:24] Evan Francen: ones. How about H one N one?

[00:56:26] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah. It’s ahead of swine flu is ahead of all those. But it’s been such a short period. We don’t know what’s going to happen, right? But if you if you look at that really short term it’s like

[00:56:35] Evan Francen: oh but yeah exactly. But the fact of the matter is I don’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow.

[00:56:40] Brad Nigh: They’ve already started vaccines. They’ve already started.

[00:56:42] Evan Francen: I don’t know what’s gonna happen today. You’re not even just with this but just with anything, right? I mean is there a gas leak in the back and it’s just going to the building is just going to blow up, you know, maybe. I mean, there’s just so many things that are unknown and the unknown shouldn’t be scary. Right? That’s just unless you’re in like the pacific ocean and there are sharks.

[00:57:05] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it’ll be it’ll be interesting to see how this turns out.

[00:57:08] Evan Francen: Yeah, Well, and it will turn out eventually. All right. So, we have two news items quick uh non coronavirus news because I had to pick something where we didn’t have to keep beating this horse. It’s getting tiring. Um massive cyberattack. Hit the town hall of Marcel ahead of local election. Did you read about this one? This is on security affairs uh website.

[00:57:40] Brad Nigh: Yeah,

[00:57:42] Evan Francen: municipal elections in mar mar cell. So while the corona virus was spreading worldwide, a massive cyberattack hit this town hall of Marcel and the metropolis. This is 2020 election

[00:57:56] Brad Nigh: doesn’t that

[00:57:58] Evan Francen: hinder machines were made inoperable.

[00:58:01] Brad Nigh: It’s just as ransomware would be interesting to know which one it was.

[00:58:04] Evan Francen: Right. Well, this is, you know, and it’s another case of, you know, local government that was hit by ransomware. We’re seeing ransomware. I mean, there’ll be an uptake. So, if you haven’t taken proper precautions. Uh I mean, that’s just another thing you have to take care of. Right? I mean for nothing in your data and air gapping it.

[00:58:27] Brad Nigh: Mhm. Yeah, there’s some basic things you can do have logging alerting with a separate, not on your domain separate. Have your backups air gapped or separate with different set of credentials not on the domain.

[00:58:39] Evan Francen: Well that’s why they that’s why I chose that one because uh it’s just one of those examples where you know coronavirus, coronavirus, coronavirus or crap ransom where it happens just like that. I’ve seen it so many times. You just got a call

[00:58:55] Brad Nigh: Just one yesterday for ransomware.

[00:58:57] Evan Francen: Right? I mean it’s so just because you’re preoccupied with with your coronavirus doesn’t mean the Attackers are like oh well we’ll just wait till the coronavirus dies down before we start sending ransomware or doing a phishing attack or whatever else they’re doing. No this is the time when they hit twice as hard twice as often. So pay attention. Next article I have is from G. B. Hackers on security. The title is Ex CIA official allegedly leaked. CIA’s secret hacking tools to wikileaks catch this one.

[00:59:33] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it was, I’ll be honest, usually there the G. B. Hackers are easy to follow that. The way that was written was a little bit

[00:59:42] Evan Francen: kind of all over the place. Yeah. So there there was a verdict in the case. 8000 classified CIA documents to the known whistleblower. Uh And he did it under the name Vault seven. So this is ex-Cia agent Joshua Schulte was found guilty on two counts of contempt of court and presenting false reports to the FBI investigators and then there’s a bunch of other information And nowadays I think most of this information that was leaked is no longer really all that sensitive. I mean, still sensitive. But yeah, it’s sort of old news now. But it’s interesting that, you know, years later the prosecution is still

[01:00:29] Brad Nigh: just as interesting. They found him not guilty on eight counts of transmission of the documents but guilty on contempt of court and basically lying. But they couldn’t prove he actually did it. He just, they just said it seems like he lied to him.

[01:00:46] Evan Francen: Yeah, they could prove that he lied, but they couldn’t prove that he, that is something information and I’m guessing it, you know, I haven’t read the entire case or anything like that or whatever, you know, public. But um, usually it’s a chain of custody thing somewhere. So they needed logs from a certain system, certain server or something like that and they couldn’t obtain those. And so it was a break in the chain which then inserts a reasonable doubt. Um, yeah, so anyway, interesting story there. Uh, and you can always go to the, you know, the show notes that’s on, you know, my website Evan francine dot com. If you want to read that stuff, uh, in closing, uh, that’s it, you got anything to add. We could talk all day about coronavirus I assume. And I like the fact that you and I think have differing, you know, slightly different opinions on coronavirus, which I’m all for man. God knows. I don’t I don’t have all the answers on this thing. And

[01:01:46] Brad Nigh: it would be so boring to surround yourself with just yes man,

[01:01:49] Evan Francen: tell me about it. Well and I’m one of those people were at even it sounds crazy. But I would even I was telling you this earlier. I would even purposely get infected so that I could have if but then you you brought up a good point if I could, My body would build the immunity and two weeks of sickness because in 80% of the cases, the symptoms are mild like fine. Give it to me. I’ll live through the two weeks and then I’m back to not worrying about this.

[01:02:21] Brad Nigh: You can, yeah, you’re you’re not contagious. You’re not going to worry. You can actually be helpful and

[01:02:26] Evan Francen: right. Yeah, but we’ll see. We don’t even know for sure if it’s if you can be reinfected. So it’s just so near that answer yet. So as soon as we find out that you can be reinfected, I’ll go get infected. I’d

[01:02:40] Brad Nigh: prefer to wait for the

[01:02:41] Evan Francen: Next two weeks, spent my two weeks at home. But the vaccine that there is going to be months, 18 months. I heard him all right anyway, They have an episode 71. It’s good to be home. It’s good to be back here even though the world went to crap while I was gone. Let’s hope and pray for a good week with some sanity. Let’s hope. You know, we started getting some factual information a lot less hoop la wow, you know that kind of stuff. Uh if you’ve got something to say, you can certainly email us, We do love hearing from you un security at proton mail dot com. If you’d rather do the whole social media thing, I tweet a lot more than you do bread. Yeah, he’s an introvert.

[01:03:25] Brad Nigh: Yeah. I did respond. If people actually like introvert people, it may respond,

[01:03:31] Evan Francen: I’m an introvert. So it is a task for me to use uh and you don’t have to obviously it’s not a job requirement nothing. But I’m @EvanFrancen, and Brad is @BradNigh Check out our security, you know, security studio. It’s which is weird on twitter because it’s actually @StudioSecurity because somebody else had security studio and there’s no way to get it that’s gone. It’s just like the insecurity, there is an unsecurity podcasts are an unsecurity twitter handle that has been inactive for like, I don’t know many years now and the guy doesn’t respond so it will never be able to get it right. So anyway, check out @StudioSecurity check out @FRSecure frequently. They do post a lot of stuff and hopefully most of it is good. Keep an eye out for the press release coming later today for security studio. Uh Both brad and I are praying for for your health and for our own health. The health of our families, your families. Uh please don’t panic. Uh, make good decisions. Use your, use your mind, use your head to use facts whenever you can find them. Uh that’s it. So we’ll talk to you all next week.