Cybersecurity Wellness, Mental Health, and Work-Life Balance

Unsecurity Podcast

We’re continuing our unofficial series on the topics of cybersecurity wellness, mental health, and work-life balance in the information security industry. To do so, Brad and Evan are joined by Richie Breathe—who provides wellness education for professionals.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:22] Evan Francen: Hi again. Everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Unsecurity podcast. This is episode 104. The date is november 3rd 2020 and I am Evan Francen your host joining me is my good friend and coworker Brad Nigh. Good morning brad.

[00:00:36] Brad Nigh: Well, it’s morning.

[00:00:38] Evan Francen: It’s morning. Absolutely right. Yeah, I guess good is relative.

[00:00:47] Brad Nigh: Good morning

[00:00:49] Evan Francen: and we’ll navigate right? We navigate good mornings and bad mornings. Every mornings.

[00:00:54] Brad Nigh: It’s not a bad morning. I’m just tired.

[00:00:57] Evan Francen: Like how

[00:00:58] Brad Nigh: capital?

[00:01:01] Evan Francen: How old are you?

[00:01:03] Brad Nigh: Uh, 43.

[00:01:06] Evan Francen: All right. So you’ve navigated in 43 years of good bad in the middle mornings. It’s just one of those. Maybe

[00:01:15] Brad Nigh: that’s in the middle. It’s not a bad, it’s not good. It’s the morning.

[00:01:21] Evan Francen: We’ll see if we can make it better. Also joining us is a good friend. Richie. Breathe. Good morning, Richie.

[00:01:28] Richie Breathe: Good morning Evan. Good morning bread. Hello.

[00:01:32] Evan Francen: He’s got a good radio voice. Yeah. All right. First things first. Today’s election day. It’s November three, allegedly we’ve got all day today to vote if we haven’t already. Have you guys voted

[00:01:45] Richie Breathe: yep. Mm. Yesterday I confirmed mine

[00:01:48] Brad Nigh: Was accepted October 16.

[00:01:51] Richie Breathe: I’m all over it.

[00:01:53] Evan Francen: And you vote and you voted for who I told you to vote for. Right?

[00:01:57] Brad Nigh: I don’t pay it enjoys. I have no idea.

[00:02:03] Evan Francen: No, no, but it’s crazy how many people are out there who tell you who to vote for. And it’s like, man, I can do my research. I mean, I understand some people don’t research, but I don’t even tell my my own wife who to vote for. No, she knows who to vote for.

[00:02:19] Brad Nigh: I’m just gonna be glad when it’s over because saturday. And I got five or six texts and three or four phone calls and sunday I got the same number uh just from both political parties. Like, oh enough, you can’t you’re not changing my mind. I voted two weeks ago.

[00:02:40] Evan Francen: Yeah, just go away one. And uh you know, some people like a friend of mine Roger Grimes, you know, tweeted to me. Uh we can just say um what do you crap, what do you text back? We need one of those texts. Uh Stop. Uh And they’ll stop texting. Like well yeah, but I think it’s more fun to sort of play with him. I played with one of them uh this weekend. You know, they texted me and I was like, tell me more. And then they go into this long text and I’m like, okay, take me off your list. And then uh the gracious response was pretty pretty awesome. Just good person on the other end of the text. So it was fun, lighthearted. All right, well, happy anniversary to us brad. This is episode 104. It means 104. Well, I know. 104 weeks in a row. We haven’t missed a single week. Uh Two years. I can’t believe it. It uh seems like yesterday we did our first episode together. The different

[00:03:50] Brad Nigh: episode wanda. Episode one of 4 is just mind blowing.

[00:03:55] Evan Francen: Well, when you think back to all the people that we, You know, we’ve talked to all the memories you and I have shared. I mean it’s 100 4 and every show is about an hour along its 104 hours that we’ve spent. Yeah, hanging out. Yeah, I really appreciate. I mean, my fail, I’m gonna ask you uh and I’ll ask Richie too. But you know what, my favorite part of the podcast was, what we originally set out to do and that was to spend an hour, you know, a week with you. That’s been my favorite part by far. Uh And then my favorite episode, you know when I look back, there are so many just fun moments. I don’t know my are the day. You know, maybe the episode where we had our wives on was really cool.

[00:04:50] Brad Nigh: That was where I immediately went with that one.

[00:04:55] Evan Francen: Yeah, I remember like the one I did from Bulgaria when you uh brian, we’re online. That one was

[00:05:02] Brad Nigh: weird. Yeah,

[00:05:05] Evan Francen: there’s just a lot of really good episodes. Do you have a favorite?

[00:05:09] Brad Nigh: Probably the lives. It was just because just who we are. Right, Just shows this is who we are and there’s no hiding it

[00:05:21] Evan Francen: right. We’re just security guys. We got families.

[00:05:24] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I’m with you that there’s just like just so many great ones. Mm

[00:05:30] Richie Breathe: hmm. Yeah, interviews

[00:05:34] Brad Nigh: conversations with you and yeah, I think the lives would probably my favorite.

[00:05:39] Evan Francen: Yes. Now, Richie. You’ve, you’ve been listening for a while. We actually met through the podcast, didn’t we?

[00:05:46] Richie Breathe: Yeah, probably like 80 episodes deep. I caught the train early when you guys were going and still talking about every barbecue joint you stopped at, which I thought was super awesome. But is the daily insanity is that you are locked and you said you wanted a virtual water cooler. Kind of a space to chat. I was like, wait a minute BD BD BD. That sounds like my kind of weird. I’ll check it

[00:06:06] Evan Francen: out. Yes. You’re one of us man. And so what my favorite, if you had a favorite was, is that the barbecue ones?

[00:06:14] Richie Breathe: Yeah, I was thinking about it and it’s like, I don’t really know if there’s like a favorite specific moment of episode. I just remember it’s kind of weird. I became vegan like 10 years ago so I haven’t really thought about barbecue food in a long time. But just the way you talk about it is so just like, here’s my outline like mystery shopping and tell you all the things about the barbecue joining. What it was. It was too dry or too wet and by the end of it, I was like, man, I kind of want to go have some ribs right now. Like it was just very engaging.

[00:06:39] Evan Francen: Yeah, I’m wearing now martin’s barbecue

[00:06:44] Richie Breathe: Nashville Tennessee,

[00:06:48] Evan Francen: yep. The uh is a vegan, that means you don’t get to have bacon.

[00:06:53] Richie Breathe: Uh this is, this is true. I didn’t do it for ethical reasons. I did it kind of by accident of a backstage theatre kid by nature and teaching myself the soundboard and the lighting board before. These were computerized meant that I was hanging out with old analog and tape machines in a control booth for a while and those get very warm and there wasn’t really a refrigeration or any way to keep the food. I was going to eat cold so slowly I phased out animal products and built up a plant protein diet and realized that my body just doesn’t really accept these things anymore. So you can’t fake. Again, it’s not worth trying to fake so I can have bacon, but I’ll get sick later. So I just tend to not eat it.

[00:07:29] Evan Francen: I don’t know, man, I don’t know what it’s not what life would be like without big and it hurts to think about it for me. I mean, I guess I respect, I respect, we don’t eat bacon, but oh my God, what would I do? I’d be like life without here. It

[00:07:49] Richie Breathe: sounds like you found like a radioactive carrot or a really awesome motivator, that means whatever behaviors you want to do, you can just put bacon at the end and you’ll have the motivation to do it, right?

[00:08:01] Evan Francen: Oh, yes. Oh yes. I bought £33 of bacon. It was funny. I bought £3 of bacon. No, sunday. And you know, I was putting in the fridge and she’s like, you can eat that in a day. I’m like, I know I

[00:08:17] Brad Nigh: Still have, I still have like 9lb of that thick cut straight from the processor. Bacon.

[00:08:25] Evan Francen: So good. What are you waiting for?

[00:08:29] Brad Nigh: A ration? And I can’t eat it all at once.

[00:08:32] Richie Breathe: I’ve already had like three lbs of this.

[00:08:35] Evan Francen: Do you want me to show you how,

[00:08:36] Brad Nigh: you know, I want it. All

[00:08:40] Evan Francen: right, well, let me know if you change your mind, I’ll

[00:08:43] Brad Nigh: then I’ll be having some this week.

[00:08:46] Evan Francen: All right. So uh before we jump into richie and and kind of stuff, I want to talk about their crazy, crazy week, man. We’ve been working on instant responses all week. I think next week, next episode I’d like to talk about what not to do in an incident response. You know, we we see that

[00:09:07] Brad Nigh: respond. Er Sorry,

[00:09:10] Evan Francen: you don’t do that

[00:09:11] Brad Nigh: frustrating

[00:09:13] Evan Francen: well, and uh you know the incident that I okay.

[00:09:18] Brad Nigh: Uh task.

[00:09:21] Evan Francen: All right. Well, in real quick. Uh because it friday week before a week ago, uh 2:00 AM on Saturday morning, I got a call, hey, sorry. You know, to call your cell phone. But you know, we’ve got this ransomware attack and and everything and I’m like, and I did, you know, I’m sleeping. We’re not a 34 employee company anymore. You know it uh, I’m just sleep a little bit. So uh get up in the morning about nine and see the voicemail. I’m like, oh boy. So our teams already on it. And then I got on site and uh, couple of things, you know, the customer was like, because I went on site because they’re close to me. Uh and so I wanted to kind of smooth things over. But you know, one of the first things the customer says is, you know, we called, I called you at two a.m. I was like, well, you know, do you have an incident response plan? Yeah, can you get it out? Yeah, I’m ready to do this. But this is what I was thinking. I’m like, is step one Nikolaev and so on because that’s not good if it is. Uh and then getting on site and finding that, you know, Homeland Security is on the phone, FBI is on the phone. Insurance companies on the phone. The county sheriff has an investigator in the room. Another incident responder in terms of, you know, another company was, was there, it’s like, what in the hell? I mean talk about going into a, you know, should show. I shouldn’t swear. But that’s what it was. It was just nuts. So we’ll talk about that next week. But I want to wrap up. You know, we’ve had two conversations in a row with Neil O’Farrell where we talked about, you know, stress burnout, mental health in our industry. You could talk seriously, you can do a podcast just on that. Right? The whole thing. It’s such a deep subject. It’s so important for all of us in this industry to live healthier lives. Um, and so I thought, what better way to kind of wrap this thing up than to bring in Richie and Richie is a person that just to give you a little bit of background, which he was listen to the podcast and then and found us on the daily insanity check in The daily insanity check in is uh, you know, it’s every day we’ve, we’ve been doing it since the initial lockdown back in March and Rich. He’s been a regular there. So that’s how we first met. He’s been a huge blessing to me. He’s taught me a lot about the importance of slowing down, breathing, stretching. Uh, he actually leads the daily insanity check in every morning. We do five minutes maybe of stretching. Uh, and I’ve never done that before. Uh, you know, in my 30 years of information security. I’ve never stopped being aware of my own Just where am I, where am I where I’m, where I’m at, right? You know, in terms of like breathe, why just take that for granted. You mean actually stop and concentrate on my breathing. That’s actually a healthy thing. Holy crap. So I thought, what a great way to finish up this kind of healthy thing with, you know, talking to Richie about our stigma. I think there’s a stigma in our industry against doing healthy stuff because I certainly, I mean we’re just talking about bacon. I like your £9 of bacon right now, brad, bring that stuff over, but it’s not healthy. Should be bragging about that or should I should be more aware and be like no, £9 of bacon in once bidding is probably not smart. So anyway, I love Richie, I’m super happy that he’s here to join us. He’s, he’s got an unusual sort of take on things and, and our, our listeners can can learn a few things. So Richie again, welcome. Uh, tell us, tell us about you, Tell us about your background a little bit so we can get to know you.

[00:13:40] Richie Breathe: Uh, sure, thanks. Uh, I think, let’s see, I think a lot of it has to do with a good self assessment, like I kind of mentioned before, I’m doing a backstage theatre stuff when I’m grown up and I’m getting into realizing that there’s sort of the people on stage in the limelight and then there’s usually at least twice as many people kind of offstage, supporting those people in the limelight, whether it was the curtains or the light to the sound of the costumer, the makeup. And after pursuing technical theater after high school into the college Rome’s ended up at a regional Shakespeare festival doing a lot of audio and electronics. I found that well everybody I worked with was really smart. There was this kind of clunky way they carried their bodies, like some of the climbers who had to climb and hang lights really high. We’re usually in pretty good shape, but some of the really talented audio engineers were usually really, really big guys and nothing against them. But I realized that there’s biological things that happened to our body that make us more or less effective at what we’re doing. So I was able to look at my life at some point in time and say, okay if I’m basically a biological computer and now all these microphones and lights and things are taking digital internet signals. Maybe I can look at the signals that I’m getting from my brain and compare them to things that are indicative behaviors of people who are the way I want to be. And then start doing those things. Those behaviors are doing either a real heavy stigma personally against yoga. When I first learned about it, I was like, I don’t understand, it just looks like people are doing a dance to no music. It seems like somebody just saying you do this, you do that. And eventually I learned that to me, yoga just means breathing. The word itself comes from the yolk of an egg or two yoke something onto like perhaps a horse or a wagon or cart. So that idea would be here sort of yoking your mind to your body and your body to your mind to keep it together because if you’re running 100 miles an hour and you’re like stub your toe, you might not notice. But if you walk in nice and slow when you stub your toe, you can stop and wait a minute. I don’t want to fall over. I don’t want to trip, I want to like stay balanced in in my own body. So for the past couple of years I’ve been doing a lot of tai chi and qigong coaching, which is subtle breath energy stuff. Originally I did it because to be a yoga teacher, you had to pay absorbent amounts of money to people and do really strange and crazy things. But eventually I found myself in a circumstance where the limitations of stretching, we’re not really as solid. I realized that I was living a life at that time as an apprentice electrician where not everybody was paying attention to safety protocol and people were like kind of like, all right, I stretched, let’s go. Now look at them being like, whoa, if we’re going to carry stuff up and down stairs all the day with the contractors, you gotta do real stretches and they make sure nobody’s really ready otherwise at the end of this eight hour shift we’re gonna beat down to poor heck. And it’s going to be really difficult to climb back up. So I do what I can to connect with individuals on the 1 to 1 level most of time through the internet because I was raised as one of those kind of kids and look at how to calm the body down, Look at how to step into the world where you’re a little more centered, a little more focused, a little more in your lane. Any of this makes sense.

[00:16:41] Evan Francen: Absolutely to me. It does honestly I I’ve worked like I said 30 years in this industry and I don’t I can’t recall ever taking time to stretch.

[00:16:55] Brad Nigh: Mhm. That’s crazy.

[00:16:59] Evan Francen: I sit in a damn chair all day pretty much. You know, there’s the stand up desk thing that I do once in a while. But in general I’m stationary.

[00:17:10] Brad Nigh: I

[00:17:11] Evan Francen: started doing all kinds of stuff.

[00:17:13] Brad Nigh: I started go like get nancy. All right. I have to get up and move like that. I mean, you know, I sit all day too, but I didn’t get an effort to get up and move. I can’t it’s still so off if I don’t

[00:17:32] Evan Francen: yeah. Yeah. I’m the same way. I mean I get up and move quite a bit either. Uh Because you know I also have A. D. H. D. So you know it’s squirrel stuff you know what’s that sound or jesus you know I smell cookies you know I’m gonna go get a gear whatever but it’s the conscious you know a thing to stop and you know stretch the shoulder stretch out my neck and I’ll do it if I feel the tightness but I don’t do it as a preventative measure very often.

[00:18:08] Brad Nigh: I mean I go and try to do a walk even if it’s just a half mile just to get away from the screen and you just yeah I don’t come back feeling so much better.

[00:18:23] Richie Breathe: Yeah

[00:18:25] Evan Francen: well so richie you grew up you grew up around computers didn’t you?

[00:18:30] Richie Breathe: Absolutely. Uh My family moved a lot when I was growing up but at one point in time my parents got involved with like help desk stuff and like telephone operator and this was much more when the telephones were more like big panels. Not quite the full patch pay but still looking at analog technology. And when the help desk and I t. We’re kind of snowballed into one. And I got to be kind of privy to as growing up like 789 10 11 12 hearing. All right so these are computers that are becoming more or less dangerous. These were files that are stolen like you can steal a file. How does that work? And I learned about trust and authenticated data in an authenticated data. So when I was coming up, I remember hearing about my peers who are interested in like ethical hacking as an idea or kind of teaching themselves. Alice script, kitty styles. And I saw that there was an old guard that’s already well established. So it’s a matter of discovering what new terms like things through sands and different kind of accreditations so that everybody has a common language and kind of a touch on a point before. I don’t necessarily think bank it is bad by any means. I think what you’re talking about is a self assessment that you don’t have any other thing that you’re interested or excited about that size of portion for right now. And so it’s a matter of drawing corollaries, maybe £9 of bacon is equal to like a motorcycle ride across five states and so you can hold both those in your brain as motivating factors so that you can continue to move your energy forward in that way. But my brain is always kind of switching between red team. Blue team, Red team, Blue team. But I was raised very clearly the objective is to be as wide as possible, be as good as possible, help as many people as you humanly care. That’s the objective because if you’re just taking from people you’re contributing to the lack and you’re contributing to the dissonance rather than the resonance.

[00:20:11] Evan Francen: Yeah, like that when you and I had, you know, numerous conversations, you know, over the last six months, you know, in the daily insanity check ins and I should remind listeners that the daily insanity checking is open to anybody. It’s not a closed group. It’s not, you know, an exclusive thing. It’s for anybody. The only rules are, there’s only two rules, be yourself and be respectful otherwise. You know, I mean, we’ve heard all kinds of things about people struggling with certain areas of life. Sometimes it’s just a jovial discussion about funny things. People like to laugh at me, which, um, but you know, through the daily insanity check in, you know, you lead us in these stretches. Others like the Minnesota County Computer consortium, you know, actually contracted you to come and do a couple of sessions for all the counts in the state,

[00:21:12] Richie Breathe: working on a couple more proposals for them specifically. So trying to find ways to get that information communicated because once you share with vocabulary, you can do a lot more things rather than when people kind of have to learn each other’s language. So to me, the daily insanity and the whole insecurity focus has been a really big blessing to contextualize things. And sometimes there’s a frustration how come other people don’t already know this. But if I look at somebody who’s walking around kind of tense, like, yeah, they’re gonna walk around the block maybe with their dog or something, but it’s not usually appropriate for me to go, Hey, relax your shoulders like across the street as much as I want to. And I really hope that they have a good day. I just, I gotta remember to keep myself in a good relaxed space. So when people look at me, they’re like, yeah, that guy’s come, maybe I can be calmer.

[00:21:54] Evan Francen: It is 2020 though. I mean I’m thinking about doing that. I’m on the dog walk tonight today. Hey, your shoulders, you look too tense, breathe. I want to do that. I think it would be funny. I should record it. I wonder what would happen to me. Well, you know, I live in, I live in Laconia Minnesota, which is a nice small hometown. I don’t think I’ll get shot or anything. I should try it.

[00:22:23] Brad Nigh: Especially with the big beard and

[00:22:28] Evan Francen: yeah, my little, my little, my little dog, I

[00:22:35] Brad Nigh: look for pound dog.

[00:22:37] Evan Francen: Yeah. I look funny when I go give a walk, you know, £240 big beard. Yeah. And I got this little thing, You know, I think I’ve, I think I’ve had excrement, you know, way more than that dog. Uh, yeah. All right. So let’s, uh, in your opinion. And so Richie, you’ve been around, you certainly grew up around technique and, and, and, and security stuff. Right? You understand? I think like many of us who have been around for a while, that tech and security really can’t be stated that securities really in all your buckets, right. It’s not just in this, it’s across all, you know, it’s a life skill. Honestly,

[00:23:19] Richie Breathe: it’s having a bucket that has no holes in it.

[00:23:23] Evan Francen: Yeah. Right. But so knowing what, you know, and looking at us, you know, from the ad and you know, having that unique perspective of also the outside. Is there a stigma in our industry about her against healthy stuff in your opinion?

[00:23:41] Richie Breathe: Uh, I think yes and yes. So there’s two different forms of yes for that. One of them is just the stigma stigma being connected to the modern Western world meaning America after the year 2018 2015, 20 Oh, in 1990 for like, I don’t know, 1980, I don’t know, it’s never really been common or popular to be healthy or positive in that way specifically. I think because marketers found that if you put a B on a box of wheat owes with sugar in it, it’s going to sell more than if you try to tell somebody how nutritious a strawberry is. So unhealthy things kind of became in fashion for a while. But I think specifically for the more focused, yes, there’s an accidental stigma from security people, I think if you’re talking to somebody, even if they’re just like a security guard at a museum or even they’re just somebody who’s kind of walking their rounds, checking to make sure, you know, 11:00 all as well. If they believe in their mind that caffeine is something that’s going to help them, they’re going to reach out for a bunch of caffeine whether working. However if that same, maybe E. M. T. Security person sees that caffeine can potentially be seen as a neurotoxin sometimes because sometimes it can reduce your ability to make good decisions because it prioritizes blood flow in your heart rather than your brain. That individual might see that that specific new tropic or that solution or adapted gen of caffeine could be a positive or a negative thing. So usually when people learn about like standing desks or they learn that they can do a couple of stretches, maybe squat thrusts or groupies, different kind of exercises that just engage with their body. They learned that working is a lot easier. But I know a lot of people who just kind of went from playing video games all the time into work and all the time and they’re fun motivated are kind of turned into a profit motivator and if you’re seeking your own profit, getting sort of guidance from other people isn’t always the best thing to do. So I mean, what would you say is either of yours reaction if maybe a year or two ago somebody had said, hey you need to try some yoga or tai chi she would really benefit. Do you think you would have been more open or close to that based on your self assessment at that time

[00:25:42] Brad Nigh: I’ve always been open to that type of thing. So I think similar mentioned last week I came up through the theater kind of accidentally in high school where I needed an extra class and I was like, sure, that sounds easy and then kind of fell in love with both sides, you know, a lot of the set building and like, you know, biting, running the board and all that stuff. So um yeah, you know, I accidentally threw that, that the teacher was very much into the breathing and in those things. So yeah, I’ve always been pretty open to that

[00:26:18] Richie Breathe: you’re

[00:26:19] Evan Francen: in your knee and brad. Do you do you think in our industry though, you know, outside of overall Yeah,

[00:26:26] Brad Nigh: I would say so there’s very much a mindset of like uh I don’t want to say like mailing this or you know, whatever, but everybody’s like, well I can do whatever it or not everybody I don’t want to generalize but there seems to be an overwhelming feeling of like Yeah, Oh, I can’t think of the right word but a lot of things like that, a lot of that super hero mentality,

[00:26:55] Evan Francen: bravado.

[00:26:56] Brad Nigh: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good way to start. But I think there’s a lot of that, so people don’t always want to reach out and astral, but hey, I can do whatever I have worked,

[00:27:05] Richie Breathe: you know, whatever mm murdered them kind of stuff.

[00:27:10] Brad Nigh: Yes. Yes.

[00:27:12] Evan Francen: When our job is to protect people, write protect or protect information or protect companies protect right, that’s what we do and so I wonder if there’s a a correlation between what we do and like police officers, you know their job is supposed to be, you know protect and I know that that’s a touchy subject for you know, many people today that’s their job is to protect and so you focus so much on that and you know, part of protection is yeah, you put on a face that you know, I’m tough, I’m you know, I got this, I’ll tell you what I can, but then you look at lifestyle and it’s like I could probably live a much healthier lifestyle but then I think we egg each other on, it seems sometimes to like, you know if you go to a conference, you go to security conference right? It’s there’s a lot of drinking, a lot of partying that goes on and it’s like I think I quit drinking because you know the other reasons but you know, I think, I don’t know what it does kind of seem like there’s a stigma uh you know police officers have stigmas against getting help for mental health because it will be held against them and it goes on the record and you know it shows weakness and if you’re a protector who wants to show weakness. Yeah,

[00:28:39] Richie Breathe: I’m gonna kind of take some of that wind and see if I can zoom out a little bit because I think the reason it is weakness to find help. It’s because we don’t have a realistic assessment across the board. Like we’re not speaking the same language. If we had a way to objectively agree that everybody in this area, this arena, this region would say, how do you feel scale 1 to 10 include physical, mental and emotional in your response, then people could begin to plot a trend and notice. Hey, you seem to be having sort of this monthly dip of depression or you’re in the high part. We notice every two weeks you have just a really big boost of optimism and good energy. So keep writing that and further to your point, there’s a corollary between security individuals and the protection aspect. But to me information, security I. T. People cybersecurity to zoom out as far as those words will take me. You got not only digital police officers, but you’ve got digital firefighters and you got digitally MTs. So now you’re not only protecting but you’re providing and you’re presiding. So that means that a good protector. All they have to do is have a protector they trust so that somebody else can go on watching. You can go to sleep if you’re the only person by the campfire the rest of your click is going to know, hey don’t disturb the protector during the day. They got to sleep, they got to kind of do their thing. But if you’re gonna put stuff out, you gotta have like a volunteer fire brigade. You gotta have some people who can kind of watch it in the good times so that you can kind of get your honor and relax. And then to the last point sometimes you want the ambulance driver to have the two am phone call. It’s not always best to have the brain surgeon have the two am phone call,

[00:30:10] Evan Francen: right? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know where I fit in that. I don’t know if I’m, I’d like to do brain surgery. That’d be cool. But that’s a whole other story. All right. So, um, so it sounds like it’s unanimous at least amongst us three that there is a stigma against healthy stuff in the information security industry that agree.

[00:30:37] Brad Nigh: Yeah. I think I don’t think it’s necessarily a conscious decision either. It’s just kind of what what happened. However, it is

[00:30:47] Evan Francen: sort of our culture. Yeah. Yes. So what are some ideas, you know, Richie, you know, you’re in the wellness space. You know, I’ve always, I’ve really learned to appreciate your, you take just on holistic wellness to write holistic. So in other words that’s kind of been stolen, But holistic means just, you know, you mentioned mental, physical and spiritual health, right? That’s a holistic view of wellness. I think, um, what are some ideas where some, some things that we can do, uh, some tips and tricks. Some, some things that list. Our listener can go, yeah, I can do that and I can do that today and I can make that a habit for me.

[00:31:32] Richie Breathe: Nice. For sure. I think I’ll finesse the term a little bit. So we’re coming from a common definition because sometimes the word spirituality has some woo woo stuff and then sometimes people don’t really want to talk about their fields of their emotions. So I’m gonna square all the way down and say that it’s only physical health, your physical health, meaning your gut health also determines your heart health kind of have that eat too much taco bell kind of don’t feel good versus had some home cooking, feel great. So you’ve got your heart, you got your emotional state is built on having the good choices meaning eating good food and thinking good thoughts and then that mental spiritual state, I’m going to default that just for this conversation, briefly into the neurochemicals that are there, do you have a lot of serotonin, a lot of dopamine a lot of the steel coal lane a lot of time after trip to me and like how is your neural soup going? So the first one, if anybody wanted to make their day or make their experience different is to take a second and just breathe three times. The reason I choose three is because it’s an easy number. We can get to some aboriginal tribes don’t count much higher than three because they don’t see a purpose. But most of us are energetically moving hand to mouth. We’re doing a bunch of energy and we’re doing things and as soon as we like slow down and breathe just all of a sudden your body has to be like whoa wait I’m focused enough ram enough CPU resources internally to my lungs that maybe I’m not going to be able to type or drive or do these things and to make that a habit into a choice into something that you’re like cool, I’m more present. That’s what presence meditation and awareness meditation will bring somebody into. But the traditional I’ve learned meditation isn’t a nice clothes thing. Like everybody can take a meditation right here even if you’re driving, you can do anything at all and just gently wiggle your toes and maybe gently rock your head back and forth a little bit just so that if there’s anything on your head or around your head, you remember that it’s your choice to have this stuff on because sometimes we think that we’re in a paralyzed sleep state moving through life on autopilot. So breathing is a good one. Water is another second. There’s a lot of stigma against like why would why would breathing or breath work be so important. I really appreciated the previous episodes that wouldn’t really esoteric and specific breathing like real talk if you breathe in through one nostril and out through the other nostril for like three minutes, your brain is going to change from M. T. F. S to fat 32. Like the whole thing is just going to shift but not a lot of people are willing to try that experiment to be like wait I’m going to breathe in and hold for a moment and then breathe out and then notice that the train tracks in my brain all of a sudden got clear the debris that was there. I realized that in an hour and a week in a year that isn’t gonna matter but this choice is gonna matter. So a lot of its contextualizing it again, self assessment, I’m beginning to think as you’re going like if there’s a self assessment for the body, you have to see how your nervous system is, how your heart rate is, how your tendons are, how your muscles are. And if any of those are less than desirable just give a little attention there. You don’t have to stop everything else and put all of your focus on decoding things because then all the other stuff going on isn’t really going to be important. So another important part is to have at least one person. I like the term accountable about the but accountability buddy would be somebody who you go to because you know that they help you stay accountable to yourself now that doesn’t even have to be a person and it doesn’t even have to be somebody that you really see. It can just be taking a second to look at a picture of someone or something or remember that postcard time you went somewhere or did that thing or if you’re blessed to have a little crater around maybe celebrate that animals just because hey, it’s an animal, it’s doing its own thing and that will give you that step away from the wheel. You’re a starship enterprise and you on the bridge all the time. Like you pitched a cot on the bridge and like you sleep on the bridge and like you’re always by this change like man if you’re the captain of the enterprise,

[00:35:11] Evan Francen: walk

[00:35:11] Richie Breathe: away try some other stuff you know does any of this kind of point in that direction?

[00:35:17] Evan Francen: Yeah. Yeah breathe that. I like because you know it just seems like there’s so many things in life we just take for granted you don’t even think about it so and I like no you go ahead.

[00:35:34] Brad Nigh: Oh no I was just gonna say it’s funny because last year one of the things uh the exercises Renee had us do as a leadership team is brought in rocks literal like rocks and had everybody write a word and how you can get through Q. Four, what’s your what’s your word to get through Q. For and you know shocking, you surprise you and. Andrews with this fight right to really push it. But I wrote breathe right Remember to take that step back and just Okay.

[00:36:05] Evan Francen: Yeah but I love that tip to because it’s it’s a thing that we can all take anybody can do that right in case you didn’t know your breathing right now right? I mean so it’s like all I all were it sounds like and catch me if I’m wrong richie. But it’s it’s be conscious to take the mindfulness piece. You know that um Neil Farrell was talking about two last week like just take you know think about the breathing right?

[00:36:42] Richie Breathe: And they could even be seen as like a dent, the autopilot because we’re a hyper normal state and we’ve normalized our response so you don’t get like totally reset your track. But when you take a second and like zoom out and breathe, maybe you like put the scalpel down for a second, put stuff down and be like, am I done? Is it good? one

[00:37:01] Brad Nigh: of the things that I really like doing during the day and it takes literally 45 seconds is breathe in for five holes for five and out for five. Just do it. Like you said three times four times.

[00:37:13] Richie Breathe: I definitely did that process and I’m glad that you have that built in his behavior. Are there any other things that you do? Like some people look 20 ft away. Like they’ll engage their eyes with something at a distance so their awareness can kind of change but how did you recently learned that 5×5?

[00:37:30] Brad Nigh: Uh I don’t remember a long time,

[00:37:36] Richie Breathe: you know?

[00:37:37] Brad Nigh: Yes. Oh for sure. And you know now, right, I’m lucky my office here looks out over our backyard which overlooks just a little lake in some woods and yeah, I’ll watch there. And we had, we had osprey and hawks flying around over the summer and just kind of taking that time to just be like, wow, that’s you know, just resets you.

[00:38:04] Richie Breathe: Right, right. You’re like investing time in your own experience. A weird little bio hack real quick if you’re kind of stuck, go see some organic green because there’s a lot of jokes about computer stuff being green and it’s sort of the green technology. But even I can see more hues of green than any other color. So when you’re looking at natural organic green like trees or grass, your eyes are doing like articulating unpack and they’re decompressing because it’s getting new types of green. Originally I think it has to do with predator or prey. Like is that green from something that can kill me or is this from a tree? But most of time people see it as like Forrester nature therapy.

[00:38:41] Evan Francen: That’s cool man, every time I talk to you, Richie, I learned something new. That’s good. Well that and I love it. Ok, so and I’m trying to summarize too, so breed be mindful mindfulness learn mindfulness and I think if you’re like me initially at the beginning it’s gonna feel really awkward because like everything you start that’s new, feels a little awkward, right? It’s it’s getting through maybe that, but maybe it doesn’t feel awkward either way. Uh And I love the fact that you said water. That’s one of the things that I’m going to be focusing on this week actually is trying to drink more water. Um Yeah, I don’t like water.

[00:39:26] Brad Nigh: I get a couple of the straw because they kept getting in my must actually when I talk it would spray and I was like, that’s not cool.

[00:39:33] Evan Francen: No, I don’t like water man. You it’s just yeah, there’s no flavor it’s like, so what helped me learn

[00:39:44] Brad Nigh: as we said would help me transition was those and off of soda I couldn’t almost never drink soda anymore was the like the flavored seltzer waters just, you know, the bubblies or whatever. And that got me that carbonation that I liked and had a little bit of flavor and then now I’ll have those as a treatment. Yeah.

[00:40:05] Evan Francen: What the water? Yeah, I think I’ll use a lemon nice first thing I learned that from year to richie lemons

[00:40:14] Richie Breathe: and citrus like limes and oranges, help stabilize your body’s alkalinity. So it kind of looks at the swimming pool of your body and make sure that you’re ready for, you know, active use rather than ready for just kind of sitting and not be in touch for a while and I know that the conversation from the carbonated drinks, the neo drops are a good way or the different kind of flavor drops just to add something to it to me, that’s like a half step into trace minerals and you can get different vitamins and things to add to your water. So one of my favorites is called concentrates and it’s all the trace minerals from the salt lake in Utah. And what they did is they took some of the salt lake and they distilled out and there’s almost all the minerals the human body needs naturally occurring in that lake. So you put a drop or two of that in your water and your drinking and it’s a little salt ish ish. But it also has the iodine and copper and all the things in correct human amounts.

[00:41:02] Evan Francen: Mhm. Well I like the idea of a kind of a accountability buddy. That’s awesome, great word. Uh and uh you know for me, I have a human one and a AK. 9 1, you know, my wife uh just amazing, she’s my best friend, she certainly keeps me accountable, but then my uh my dogs and I leave my office door open when I’m working from home and they’ll they’re always interested in like what the hell is going on and then like one of them won’t take like like no for an answer. So next thing I know she’s up on my lap like you gotta give me some attention or like I’m going to, I’m gonna to the coffee table so it forces me to stop, you know what I’m doing? At first? I’m really pissed off. I’m kind of pissed off about it and like, seriously? And that’s like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. So you get a dog cat.

[00:42:05] Brad Nigh: My desk is kind of in the middle of the room, just standing desk and my dogs will come in and do a lap around and walk out. Just, I don’t know why, but it just cracks me up every time they do it like, hey, no, okay, bye.

[00:42:20] Evan Francen: But it broke, you’re broke, you’re broke the monotony, right?

[00:42:26] Richie Breathe: Yeah. They might just be walking by making sure you don’t need a pet or anything. You’re doing okay? Yeah, you’re still working okay. Well you’ll be out through them in a minute nowhere as well, so you can get here.

[00:42:34] Brad Nigh: Exactly.

[00:42:35] Evan Francen: Alright, that’s cool. So, and I think, you know, in our industry to break the stigma, it’s, you know, more honest, talk right about, do you think, you know, sharing, you know stories like Richie’s and, and you’re a resource to right? People can reach out to you, people can skip out for help in these in these areas, right? You’re starting, are you starting a new, your own business or are you given now with that

[00:43:09] Richie Breathe: kind of in a weird little niche. I’ve reached out to the mental health hackers are really all about their mission, I like what they’re doing. However, instead of like a wide Brockett, like not trying to show up at a convention and provide a container per se because I think that’s important because common life has all these things, but I specifically took my tai chi and yoga practicing yoga practicing, what is it tai chi coaching and yoga practicing? There we go. English into an open space. So in the last year or so I’ve started a project called Rainbow Crystal and that can be found at Rainbow Crystal dot org, I choose the name Rainbow Crystal because it sounds kind of like wait a minute what? But at the same time it’s not like the seventh dimension ble etienne healer man, because I’m not trying to like summing up all that kind of whip, just keeping it basic with the cream because I think people have to decide what they want. So for you to say, hey, I go in the half mile walk around my block every day and it helps me reduce my stress. Some people don’t want to hear that. But after working alongside with somebody for a while, they’ll be like, how are you always calling? And sometimes it’s awkward to not be able to say why just have a really good self care ritual because people what’s a self care ritual, what is self care, why would I need that? So specifically I enjoy talking with people collectively. So I give free 15 minute consultations to anybody who wants to talk about wellness at all. If people are more dialed in saying cool, I used to be a skier and now I’m doing mechanic work. So my body is kind of out of Jack. Okay, we’ll look at it, we’ll look at the plains of your body, will look at your repeated activities. And then from there we’re going to kind of make a diagnosis to figure out how you can move forward. And if it becomes like seeking medical attention, that’s something that’s up to the person. But what’s kind of hard to talk about is a lot of people are dealing with mental things that they could be teaching seeking attention for. And it’s that stigma about, I don’t think it’s bad enough. I don’t think I’m depressed enough. I don’t think this is anxious enough to go seek professional help. So it’s just creating a container in my mind and that’s part of what rainbow crystal is is a space where people can just say how they’re feeling and share what they want so that it can be dialed in to see. Yeah, so it sounds like you’re extremely dehydrated and you don’t like the taste of water because you’re so dehydrated. So just drink a gallon every day, you’ll be fine, walk around with a two liter of water and just like nurse it till it’s gone because after a couple of days of that. Whoa all this at night to urinate for like an hour. I didn’t know what happened. Well we just got some things in your body system. Finally unstuck. You know what I mean? We finally change the oil for you. So I’m really excited about sharing that time with anybody. And I think that it’s more and more important, especially as we get two more decentralized communities and more remote works, focus his health. So if somebody says, yeah, I can do this, I can do that in our sure. But if they’re not focused, is it going to take them an hour or could it take them like eight hours and it only takes a couple minutes to have that check in. Hey, are you doing okay? Really? It’s pacing each other’s breath when a manager is talking to a subordinate, they’re saying, well, who is this person in fight or flight? Are they like flipping burgers because their life depends on it or are they able to take it? You know, we have this new coupon idea. What do you think of it? Oh well I don’t really know why you’re asking me. I’m just the guy who works the print shop and I think that’s a horrible idea because it uses twice as much ink as we’re going to get on this. But thanks for asking. Like that kind of transparency I think is the new wave

[00:46:22] Evan Francen: when I’m happy to hear that because I dig transparency man. Yeah, I can’t, I cannot stand trying to read between the lines. It’s like just laying out there. I mean for people who know me, you know? Yeah man, I messed up. I can’t believe to companies, you know, but there’s a lot of things that happened. There’s a lot of people that come together. There’s a lot of really good people who make these things happen and you know, I do want to better, I do want to focus more on my health, you know, physical, mental, spiritual and it’s a journey. I mean it’s not, you get there. It’s not like I’ve arrived, You know, I’m mentally fixed and I’m never going to have another problem to say no, You take their eye off the ball man and it’s going back.

[00:47:12] Brad Nigh: Yeah. It’s a conscious effort I guess to make sure that you do those things because it is so easy to just slip and I got to get this done and and not move for six hours right? Making that conscious effort of, I need to, I need to take a breath. I’m so stressed out right now over whatever it is. It’s definitely do. Like, you know, do that breathing, go take a walk, go pet the dog, but just being aware that that’s okay.

[00:47:47] Evan Francen: Yeah. When you took, I mean You have 26 hours, you worked on incident response this weekend, right? And so you can’t run that bird. But I know you well enough to know that you are good at keeping things in check. That’s actually one of the skills I admire a lot about you is how you keep things in balance.

[00:48:11] Brad Nigh: Yeah, a couple afternoons off this week. I know I’ve got, I took the week of thanksgiving off. Not going anywhere, staying here. But I’m turning off my email. If it’s an emergency, people know how to get a hold of me with a phone call. Just you have to have to unplug because if you don’t, you’re not going to be effective.

[00:48:32] Evan Francen: Right? And to riches point. I mean, I think one of the things I picked up from what you were talking about, Ritchie is uh, it’s different every person. It’s personal, Right brad’s brad uh, balance is different than my balance and that one balance is better or worse than another balance there. Just your own balance, right?

[00:48:57] Brad Nigh: And what it takes to reset is going to be different. And we shouldn’t be judging each other right? If I take the if I do the breathing or I go for a walk, but you know, and then you want to go and you just play with your dog for whatever 10

[00:49:11] Evan Francen: minutes

[00:49:11] Brad Nigh: what works for you is what’s important. Not, well, that’s not the right thing. You should be breathing better. Well, no, that doesn’t work for you. Maybe playing with the dog is what gets you into that breathing.

[00:49:24] Richie Breathe: Mhm. I see sometimes, maybe it’s people pursuing their interests outside of work realizing that work is there to support it. A good friend of mine realized when they change jobs that this job encouraged them every two or three hours to go and walk around a little campus at the factory space, I think just like go outside, breathe, get some fresh air and over months this individual noticed that it was really affecting their positive mood. However, have another good friend of mine who works in a excuse me, electrical contracting architecture, so they’re up in the building a lot but they went to school in the field and they can be in the building and they walk around with their shoes off and they scrub their socks on the ground and they kind of have sort of a casual space and they’re able to work there for a couple weeks at a time before they go hiking out of the mountains in backpack camp almost religiously every month. So it’s less like each day they need that self care. But they got the big self care units that happened with enough regularity that they’re able to kind of hone in their patterns. So yeah, everybody is a little different and I think that common ground right now is that we all know together we can be doing better. So let’s head that direction. Yeah.

[00:50:31] Evan Francen: Yeah, I like that. And I think one of the ways to fight the stigma too is you know kind of just what we’re doing right? Let’s just raise awareness. You know everybody’s got their thing the support each other especially nowadays right? With we talked about the election and how just yes I don’t know man how divided we are. Yeah. Start showing some love, start, start start showing some compassion, you know, helping each other. Yeah. Alright well great discussion. Thanks again richie. Uh real quick we’ve got just a couple news stories. I don’t think we’re going to spend too much time on them. I think the discussion was well worth not spending as much time on the news. The first one I’ve got is uh from the register uh and the title is trump’s official campaign website vandalized by hackers who had enough of the president’s fake news.

[00:51:31] Richie Breathe: I

[00:51:35] Evan Francen: just think it’s funny. Uh Yeah in a minute I get it. Uh you know you don’t have stuff without permission. I mean that’s just it’s kind of childish but uh Yeah I mean who’s to say what’s nowadays who’s to say what’s fake and what’s not man? I mean who’s your source? Where’s the data? Yeah. Hell if I know. Uh huh. But I thought that was funny that sort of I don’t know

[00:52:07] Richie Breathe: almost as funny as the story about a good password because if you have a poor password. People will guess it.

[00:52:13] Evan Francen: Yeah. Right. Right totally. Another one I have is uh this is from security affairs, The title is May’s ransomware is going out of business

[00:52:25] Brad Nigh: uh first had surprised me then I thought about it and like oh they’ve made millions of dollars, why would you keep doing it? They’re set for the rest of their lives.

[00:52:36] Evan Francen: Yes. Yes they are. Yeah they’ll be I mean it’s the latter is right. Some of the maze people will basically retire I assume you know they probably won’t come to the US to retire or any other country that has an extradition treaty with the US but you know uh other parts of that group will go and just I mean it’s not like I’m no longer a criminal right? Yeah they’ll go on to other enterprise. Um So don’t let your guard down. It’s not anything really to celebrate.

[00:53:09] Brad Nigh: Just a little surprising. I think they are one of the more prominent groups out there. You’re not there? Right,

[00:53:18] Evan Francen: mm. Well it’s like 1878 right? They who was it? March ish or april they said that they were going to stop attacking hospitals with their ransomware right there riot and then they go quiet for six months or so. And then you know now they have re emerged and a lot of discussion about you know it’s not like they took a vacation for six months. I mean they were doing criminals do criminal stuff unless they have like some kind of come to jesus moment where Well we saw the light I’m a new creation kind of thing. They’re crooks man. So I don’t know. Yeah, that is a big, I mean they were a big group, right? They had what in there to talk about, you know, uh Steel giant Hassan group, South wire cannon, LG Electronics, Xerox City of Pensacola. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:54:24] Richie Breathe: I think it helps frame the narrative that shows that the individuals who have negative motivations also have long tails. It’s not like they’re just on the short term things. So

[00:54:35] Evan Francen: Right. No. Yeah, very good point. Last one which you know, this one is uh here takes the crap out of me. But this is from gram Gram Chloe’s uh site and the title is finished therapy clinics Ceo fired after despicable data breach and blackmail threats. There’s a big story behind this uh in the Ceo is a guy named Villa I believe. I can’t, I don’t know finish but Villa Cappio, uh the therapy clinic was vast. Um oh and like the most sensitive of sensitive data was taken, you know, in this breach meaning you know, therapy session notes, it’s a mental health, you know, organization. And so there’s there’s certain things right that you share with your therapist that you never want to get out because you, oh the damage

[00:55:42] Brad Nigh: that they face,

[00:55:45] Evan Francen: right? And you know allegedly you know the Ceo knew about the breach. Uh I mean there was there was multiple breaches actually. So you know, we didn’t learn a lesson from the first and so another one happens and we didn’t learn a lesson and another one happens and this one really, you know, made public. But the last, the devastating data breach didn’t make, it wasn’t released to the public. They didn’t let people know for 18 months.

[00:56:20] Brad Nigh: There’s gotta be that. I mean, yeah, there’s not criminal charges. I don’t know what, how else are you going to get people’s attention at this point? That’s just inexcusable.

[00:56:32] Evan Francen: Well, it’s how is this any different than in terms of damage to the human being? Uh, I mean, it’s, it’s almost like worse than assault. You know, I mean, it just causes so much pain and trouble

[00:56:51] Brad Nigh: to and was, I mean realistically you’re not typically going to see a therapist or talk to a therapist if everything’s going well right, you’re already dealing with something, whatever that is. And then to have your trust completely just destroyed. Like that adds to whatever you’re dealing with your talk, mental health. I can’t imagine what those people are going through. You know, how do you go talk to someone else and this just happened to you

[00:57:23] Richie Breathe: right? Like strategically taking down the landscape of trust because we forgot to say that there’s a difference between sensitive insecure and some things need to be both sensitive and

[00:57:34] Evan Francen: secure shit. Yeah, the actor who goes by the name, ransom underscore man demanded a ransom of €450,000 and through all of this and you can’t even give the Ceo or vast Imo credit for eventually telling users because it was the Attackers who, who emailed the victims in an attempt to extort €200. Bitcoin from each of them. So it’s like the attacker did the notification for you. I mean it’s just, it’s yeah, like you said, man, it’s, it’s 100% inexcusable and I don’t know what, what is, what’s an appropriate punishment for somebody like this.

[00:58:24] Brad Nigh: I mean, yeah.

[00:58:28] Evan Francen: Is a prison time, is it? You know, we need to work this out as a society because this needs, you know, the reason why you, there’s a couple. There’s two reasons why you punish people for crimes or bad things, right. One is because they deserve it, right? It’s a punitive thing. Another one is to set up press and a deterrent for others, right? They take notice like, oh crap, the CEO just did okay. What were we at? You know what I mean? And so it’s the second part that I’m, yeah, I mean if this affected me personally. Mhm. I don’t know. Stringing him up, you know? Uh, but how would we deter this

[00:59:15] Richie Breathe: behavior? It’ll make lines in the sand, there’s going to be users who see that and don’t think they are affected and think that it’s like, okay, it’s just as bad as me posting my inner secrets on facebook and forgetting to make that friends only versus there’s going to be other people who realize the depth like the brits and the depth of that offense and then realizing, wait, there’s there’s not a U. N. Computer nations of the world that we can say that there needs to be an agreement that like https is used for every single thing. Even though that’s basically as secure as saying that we want to make sure that every semi truck has uh air compressor breaks without checking anything about any other part of that. And just saying, oh we passed. It has air compressor breaks. There’s so many steps involved that the president is raising like the floor is raising people have to realize especially in this instance that those authentic sensitive and secret conversations secretive or I’m not even sure how to frame it, but maybe that’s the thing. It’s a common dialogue.

[01:00:11] Evan Francen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you just as a society, it’s not from its not permissible for us to let stuff like this ever happened. It’s a lot of victims and it’s it’s almost worse than assault. You know, salt a lot. You know, there’s a mental component to assault in physically. I will heal, right? Most unless you did permanent damage. But here that it is so permanent. Right? I mean this is I don’t know my heart goes out to the people who are affected and hopefully the people who are responsible to get punished for it. Alright well great episode four is just about complete Thanks guys. Next week, we’re going to tackle some of that incident response stuff, you know? So brad. I’m gonna go and let you not let you but you can write the notes for that. What do you want to leave that discussion? Because you did do 26 hours of IR work this weekend. And I think we both have some pretty interesting perspectives on IR my team lost. Didn’t stop it. Jump on that one. I was gonna suggest I was gonna suggest that because man, he’s got great insight. Uh All right. Uh Yeah, episode long five will be great. So, you know, tune in next week. Maybe we’ll invite Oscar Richie. Seriously loved having you as a guest week. I learned again. New stuff I’ve talked to so many times and every time I’m like, all right, good stuff I’m learning.

[01:01:39] Richie Breathe: Yeah, gratitude. Thank you about it. I will definitely. So, please continue both of you at being awesome because you definitely make it look easy.

[01:01:49] Evan Francen: I don’t know, check my blood pressure. He and brad’s healthier me. So yeah, thank you. Uh Any shout outs for anybody, anybody comes to mind that you want to give a shout out to?

[01:02:04] Brad Nigh: I’ll be honest. I’ll give a shout out to uh Tom and chris and Kyle and Pinky. These guys worked the overnight shift, friday saturday, sunday. And like I Yeah, that’s that’s hard work. Like I did the day shift. That was relatively easy compared to completely upending your schedule. So shut up to those guys for their dedication. Mhm. I think I think I

[01:02:32] Evan Francen: got you know. Mhm. Yeah, and I’ll second that, you know, team ambush, team ambushes are ir pen testing technical services team at fr secure and they’re the unsung heroes. A lot of this work that they do, people don’t realize how much work actually goes in for our investigations, how much work goes into incident response. Uh The one thing that people will why has it taken so long for you to get my stuff back up and running? You know, they don’t really So all that work, man. Oh my God, it’s a ton of work. The last thing we want to do is bring you back up and running. And then have you get attacked again by the same attack vector or another one that we weren’t watching. So those guys work tirelessly, they do things right, they never cut corners. I’m so proud of that team. Uh Yeah, they’re amazing and they’re unsung heroes. I mean, like I said, you don’t know the names of these people. Uh and and nobody usually give much in terms of athletes, but they’re amazing.

[01:03:34] Brad Nigh: Yeah, and they don’t, this is how I want you to know, they don’t care

[01:03:38] Evan Francen: right there in it for the right reasons. Certain back the brian Krebs

[01:03:42] Brad Nigh: thing.

[01:03:44] Evan Francen: Why do you do what you do? Richard, you got any shout outs, you got a family member or anybody at the top of mind that you say, yo what’s up?

[01:03:53] Richie Breathe: Uh I think if I talked to any of my family members that way they look at me like did you really say yo, what’s up? Okay, But I got mad love for both my brothers, older and younger who are in information fields of their own and both my parents, I think that if I didn’t have that squad of four people that guided me with their best intentions in mind, I wouldn’t have had the potential to end up where I’m at and continue to roll in that direction. Also wanted to throw some good waves out to the daily insanity is there’s all stars, they’re going to see people like lisa Raul Tony, like there’s a whole bunch of individuals sometimes Ryan drops in like it’s crazy. I just really enjoy that regular holding space so that people can talk about things and decompress because in case you haven’t noticed this year is kind of crazy and I don’t know if next year’s like in the forecast is supposed to be any calmer. However, I know that entering next year I’ve got a lot more people on my side

[01:04:44] Evan Francen: right? And I’ll summarize that. Well, Richie just said, I’m pretty sure he just said, yo what’s up? Just kidding. Alright. Lastly, okay, always grateful for our listeners, send things to us by email if you want to know how to get into the daily insanity chicken or anything else. When I get in touch with Richie. Whatever email us at un security at proton mail dot com. If you’re the social type sr socialize with us on twitter, I’m @EvanFrancen Brad’s @BradNigh are shows twitter account is @UnsecurityP. Richie how can listeners find you online?

[01:05:23] Richie Breathe: I’m findable at On the front page, you see a picture of me like this? Say, yep, that’s the right place. So, I also wanted to do this. If you haven’t checked out this book, I highly recommend so that we can create a common dialog gratitude, gratitude.

[01:05:45] Evan Francen: Thank you, Richie, appreciate it. Uh Lastly be sure to follow security studio that’s places that work @StudioSecurity. Is that twitter handle? And FRSecure is @FRSecure for more things about what we’re doing. I think security our just released version 3.10 of the platform. So it’s kind of kind of neat and FRSecure is too busy so don’t bug them. No, I’m just kidding. Go ahead. That’s it. All right, we’ll talk to you again next week. Thanks.