Unsecurity Podcast

The Cybersecurity for Girls series of the UNSECURITY Podcast is back again this week for part 8. This week, Brad and Evan are joined by Theresa Semmens, who is the current CISO at the Nevada System of Higher Education. Having also served as the AVP/Chief Information Security Officer at the University of Miami and the CISO at North Dakota State University, Theresa brings an unmatched perspective on security programs and careers within colleges and universities.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:22] Brad Nigh: All right, welcome back. This is episode 91 of the Unsecurity podcast. I’m your host this week Brad Nigh. Today is monday august 3rd august already. Evan joining. Well, it is Evan.

[00:00:33] Evan Francen: I’m kind of excited about it being August though because we’re closer to 2020 being over.

[00:00:40] Brad Nigh: Yeah, this has been a weird year.

[00:00:43] Evan Francen: Yeah, weirdest I’ve ever, Yeah, it’s weird. Mhm.

[00:00:48] Brad Nigh: So we have our eighth guest for the Women in Security series this week. Theresa Semmens. Welcome Theresa.

[00:00:55] Theresa Semmens: Good morning everyone. It’s nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:01:00] Evan Francen: See, I told you she’d say something nice.

[00:01:02] Brad Nigh: I know. Very nice. Uh, so before we really get started, I don’t know if you listen to any of the podcast, but we just kind of recap our weeks from the previous week and what we did over the weekend. So, um, then why don’t we start with you? And what did you do last weekend this weekend?

[00:01:23] Evan Francen: Well, you know, I had my motorcycle that was all crushed up from hitting the deer. Uh, so I spent the weekend putting that all back together again. Learned a bunch of stuff about motorcycles that I didn’t know before. You know, it’s kind of intimidating, tearing into a Harley, you know, pulling everything out and putting it back together again, but it worked out really nice. So we’re ready

[00:01:44] Brad Nigh: to go, I did have that. You had some sort of motorcycle adventure, not quite what I thought it was gonna be, but

[00:01:52] Evan Francen: yeah, yeah, I have the pictures of before and after. I mean it’s pretty cool to see the before and really troubleshooting all the electrical stuff, a lot of test leads kind of going everywhere, trying to sauder things together. It worked out

[00:02:06] Brad Nigh: nice. Yeah. Mhm Theresa, what about you, would you do over the last weekend? This weekend? Over the weekend?

[00:02:14] Theresa Semmens: I had a wonderful weekend. I spent the month of july in North Dakota. I was able to work remotely from there and then last Tuesday I took off in the car, headed back to las Vegas and had a beautiful trip. There’s some gorgeous scenery. I went down through the black hills and through Utah, the part of Utah where you go through provo and stuff is just stunning. So for your guys ever get a chance to drive through there, do it Evan, it’s one of the best motorcycle trips you’re ever going to take a guarantee. It got two curves and stuff. You’ll enjoy it. So back here Tuesday uh, into the heat. Mm that triple digits yesterday it was 118 wasn’t expecting that, but I had a good weekend. Just chilling and working and catching up and it’s about it.

[00:03:14] Brad Nigh: It was gorgeous here yesterday, it was like 75 and just nice breeze and sunny and

[00:03:22] Theresa Semmens: yeah,

[00:03:26] Evan Francen: once that humidity broke

[00:03:27] Brad Nigh: saturday was not fun, but yesterday was supposed to be really nice whole week this week too.

[00:03:34] Evan Francen: Yeah. And I’ll be in speaking of Black Hills, I’ll be in Black Hills. Uh Thurs thursday friday for Sturgis.

[00:03:43] Theresa Semmens: That’s a lot of fun. I’ve been there. Yeah, that’s the best place to people watch.

[00:03:50] Evan Francen: They said this is the biggest um the biggest gathering of people since the pandemic.

[00:04:00] Theresa Semmens: Be safe. Yeah.

[00:04:02] Evan Francen: Well, hopefully everybody going there, I was talking to john Herman this morning and everybody who goes there is accepting the risk. It’s not like it’s a surprise like what Covid, when when when did this happen? And hopefully everybody that leaves from there uh is smart about it, right? I’m gonna I’m gonna quarantine self quarantine for a couple of weeks just to be safe because what I don’t want to do is get other people sick, but I know that, you know, I might get sick with Covid. So, you know, I’d rather do that and have some sense of normalcy for five days as opposed to not so

[00:04:47] Theresa Semmens: are still all trading normalcy.

[00:04:50] Brad Nigh: Yeah, for sure.

[00:04:53] Evan Francen: What you brad. What do you do this weekend?

[00:04:54] Brad Nigh: Uh I got started on building the fish tank stand. So I was flying with my daughters were stained it last weekend and just kind of let it dry and we got the bones put together. So best part is it doesn’t wobble, It’s level

[00:05:12] Evan Francen: that a boy. So how uh how big a tank is it?

[00:05:16] Brad Nigh: So I built it so it could hold that Stan can hold a 30 gallon tank, but I only have a 15 gallon on got a puffer fish in it. So just freshwater puffer nicely. We can upgrade later. I figured I’d make it a little bit bigger and upgrade later. I need it. So I’ve got left is the bottom of shelf and doors and like the finishing works and standing and standing and stuff so that was fine.

[00:05:45] Evan Francen: You have, you have a beautiful house to put it in, man? I’ve seen your house and I think it’ll look really nice in it.

[00:05:50] Brad Nigh: Thank you. Yeah, last week, Good week. Got a bunch of stuff done from a couple of sales calls. But uh so far be virtual Q. S. A. Offering that we’re putting together and the new the next iteration of our fact program and then into the week did some capture the flag stuff and some ir forensics getting ready. I’m going to help out, help help. Uh the team with def con that starts friday at noon on there. They’re doing or I guess we as a company doing two different capture the flags, one more of a red team, one more of a blue team. So it’s kind of getting back into that mindset of that technical approach. So I’m looking forward to that. That’ll be a fun next week and we’ll be fine.

[00:06:43] Evan Francen: Yeah, I heard that warlock games is not doing it this year, so I’m not unhappy to see that

[00:06:50] Brad Nigh: now and

[00:06:52] Evan Francen: Maybe get a haircut. Well, I’m in South Dakota. You can see I need one. Holy

[00:06:56] Brad Nigh: crap. I’ve got the uh, obviously they go get seen on my arm. Uh oh, saturday. We actually dropped off our dogs for uh training. So that will be interesting. My kids are going a little bit crazy without the two dogs around, but they’ll be gone for at least a month. We’re thinking maybe during the two months. So it would be on leash and off leash that training. So

[00:07:24] Theresa Semmens: you’re turning them for hunting or just obedience

[00:07:27] Brad Nigh: obedience? Yeah. Just because they’re both in that £85 range and super sweet dogs. But they can, you know, they’re strong. Don’t pull a kid. Yeah,

[00:07:43] Theresa Semmens: I have a £30 cocker spaniel that can pull an

[00:07:46] Brad Nigh: adult. That’s crazy. That’s true. All right. Um What about you guys? Anything this coming week that you’re even, I know, I’m sure you’re looking forward to Sturgis, but Theresa, what about you? Anything coming up this week that you’re excited

[00:08:04] Theresa Semmens: about flying back to North Dakota for the month of august and that’s about it. Really exciting.

[00:08:12] Evan Francen: And that’s where your family is right, Theresa

[00:08:14] Theresa Semmens: correct, yep, little town called Ledgerwood,

[00:08:18] Evan Francen: Ledgerwood. So when you’re not that. So when you’re in in Vegas, they’re back in North Dakota.

[00:08:25] Theresa Semmens: Yes, they’re back in kota. My husband comes for the winter in Vegas, come about middle of november state till the middle april and then goes back. So because of Covid, I’ve been able to work remotely and he has a farmstead where we live, he has had fiber optic up to the house for five years, believe it or not and has not put in uh internet and finally said okay if you want me to come to stay, you’ve got to put that fiber optic and you gotta get the internet insight can at least work. So he waited till the very last minute and then he had it installed and I guarantee you he won’t be uninstalling it because he’s enjoying it.

[00:09:19] Evan Francen: See that’s love. Right.

[00:09:21] Theresa Semmens: Yes, that is love

[00:09:23] Evan Francen: now. Was it the same thing when you were down in Miami, when you’re at the University of Miami, was it the same way he stayed up in North Dakota.

[00:09:30] Theresa Semmens: Yes, correct. He has a business in any also farms so he couldn’t really just pack up and move with me. So, but it’s been working out pretty well.

[00:09:40] Evan Francen: Yeah, well I’m impressed and he come down and see you in Miami in the winter

[00:09:46] Theresa Semmens: there. Yeah, he was done, he loved it. Um The little town that, that wasn’t a little town, it was a suburb of Miami that we lived in called color Bay, they allowed you to put in wells and stuff in the house we bought. They had not done that. I didn’t have any irrigation or anything and that was the first thing he did because that’s his business. Is he stunkel well. And then he did all of the irrigation for the, it was a one third acre yard. He did all of that. We did all of the landscaping. So he loved it because he had projects.

[00:10:18] Evan Francen: There you go.

[00:10:19] Brad Nigh: Is he encouraging to take these jobs in the warm weather areas so we can escape.

[00:10:25] Theresa Semmens: As a matter of fact he is, he told me this is fucking when I applied for this position with the Nevada system of higher education, we call it an HCI he said Nevada and I went, yes. And he goes, well, if you get that job in Nevada, I’m going to buy you a convertible. I’m still waiting for the convertibles.

[00:10:50] Brad Nigh: Maybe

[00:10:52] Evan Francen: it hasn’t been long enough yet.

[00:10:53] Brad Nigh: Yeah.

[00:10:55] Evan Francen: If he’s working on it or maybe he’s dragging his feet like he did with the internet.

[00:10:59] Brad Nigh: Yeah. There you go.

[00:11:00] Theresa Semmens: It’s possible. Who knows?

[00:11:04] Brad Nigh: Oh well. Oh man, that’s funny. All right. So uh get going here. This is the eighth week of our series discussing the topic of women in information security industry. Um And then I think you’d agree. We’re we’re seeing some patterns but still getting new and interesting insight and just little tidbits every week. It’s really been educational for me. How about you? Well

[00:11:30] Evan Francen: yeah. And when I wrote in the show notes today, it’s uh um we didn’t go into this with a plan or any expectations and I’m really, really pleased with how things have worked out. We’ve had such a good variety of women join us from people, you know, a woman who it really isn’t an information security practitioner, you know, that’s where we started off with Renee and then you know all the way to, you know csos in corporate America to a student, you know, new security person. And now you know Theresa’s our first multi kinda see. So in higher ed which I think is really,

[00:12:13] Brad Nigh: yeah, this would be interesting. I’ve got some, I’ve had some experience with higher ed so I’m interested to see her what she can say about it.

[00:12:22] Evan Francen: Absolutely.

[00:12:23] Brad Nigh: So uh just conversational, you know, just kinda, we’ll just go with it and see what happens. So I just start with, how did you get started in in information security?

[00:12:36] Theresa Semmens: Yeah. Oh I’ve started out as uh information systems auditor for the North Dakota state auditor’s office and it didn’t take too long to realize I wasn’t a good fit. Just, it didn’t work for me being an auditor. And but the part about it and I did like was the security portions and so they would assign knows to be and I decided I was going to stay in this field. I needed to look in other directions besides the auditing and a position came up at North Dakota State University. They were looking for their first information security officer. I applied for, it was selected interviewed And they hired me and I started there in 2003 and I had the fortunate good luck to have a Ceo who mentored me. Mhm and he was the one who encouraged me to become active within the higher education groups such as Edgy cause and internet to and stuff. And then I also had a wonderful group of colleagues from network services through desktop services who helped guide me because I was the only one in my office so I needed there input. I needed their help to be able to do the work that came with my position and um I learned a great deal, I learned how to you know you get into higher ed and everything is about structural policies and you have standards and you have procedures in so you learn to do those. I became quite good at writing policy during that time. Also the training, education awareness is a big heart funny story. I used to go around the office and if I saw someone who had not locked their computer computer screen I would go in and I would set a little message with a timer that would click on if the screen was inactive for two minutes saying the cyber cop was here nice and of course two minutes is really short so that they would have to come to me and say can you please unlock that so I can use my computer so I have to go and then we have a little discussion and after it was pretty good I find a whole lot after a while. But it was interesting um we kicked off a PC I. Project there of which you guys were part and then that was a huge undertaking as well as we did another project where we did and I was removed, reduce, redact. It was called where there we found out there were a lot of P II sword in paper files such as S and credit card information. So we did a huge project getting the campus to remove all of that. And I think they still do that once a year. They go through and purge in all the records retention and everything. So yeah, so during that time I also wore two other hats. I did all of the legal work for the I. T. Contracts. Go in and read through, make sure all the security stuff was was included. And then they also nominated and made me director of records management. So you would think records management doesn’t fit with it, but since everything is digital, um it plays a huge part in that. Mhm,

[00:16:21] Evan Francen: wow. So did did you establish the information security program at nds You,

[00:16:27] Theresa Semmens: I did, I did like I said, I had a lot of help, a lot of colleagues have partnered with me. So,

[00:16:35] Evan Francen: but it’s a, it’s a really, I mean, I know now, uh, it’s a really well run program. And every year they put on that conference up there in Fargo. Were you part of getting that started to?

[00:16:47] Theresa Semmens: I was instrumental in getting that started. That was my idea. And the C I. O gave me carte blanche to run with it and we did that. We did not use any funds that came from it. That was all self supported and we did it from, I believe 2005 through 2008. And then things kind of started to, I know what you want to say. These are the attendance and stuff. And the team was getting tired. It was hard work to put all of that together. So then we, we stopped and then be provost back and I believe 2012, 2000 yeah, wanted it instigated again, wanted it started up. So then we kicked it off and this time we opened it up to the public. So, and then the attendance really sparked And we became quite well known. They’re still running it. It’s still very, very successful.

[00:17:43] Brad Nigh: I have a feeling I’m never going to be invited back to speak because I was invited last year and this year and both years were cancelled last year was the blizzard and this year was the, was the pandemic. Oh my

[00:17:55] Theresa Semmens: gosh,

[00:17:58] Evan Francen: So, so you cause the pandemic

[00:18:01] Brad Nigh: I causes a blizzard last year. And

[00:18:04] Evan Francen: so it’s not the chinese it’s you

[00:18:05] Brad Nigh: I guess it’s like I was looking forward to it but

[00:18:11] Evan Francen: now we’re gonna get hate mail.

[00:18:14] Theresa Semmens: No I don’t think so.

[00:18:17] Evan Francen: All right. So you’re right on the issue and because this is fascinating to me. So right it’s you for 14 years.

[00:18:24] Theresa Semmens: Yes. Long time. 13 years. That’s that’s unusual for AC so to be in a position that long. So not really that I last Oh usually around seven years and then you know for whatever reasons they decided to move on move up move into a different different different fields and going to something else.

[00:18:47] Evan Francen: Yes some burnout. Right?

[00:18:49] Theresa Semmens: It was going to say there’s burn out a lot of burnout. I’ve been there done that.

[00:18:56] Brad Nigh: Do you feel like getting move into that new position kind of you know because you went from India to the University of Miami did that revitalize you? You know after 14 years of new challenge or?

[00:19:06] Theresa Semmens: Yes I I was looking for something different. Um I lived in art deco to all my life. I needed a change uh And that position came up and it was a challenge. Miami has a huge research one facility and they have uh maritime research. They have um this called sea stars where they have a lot of satellites uh they have their medical research is huge. So um Then they have the you know there are private schools and in about 16,000 students when you include the hospital And the research there there was around 16,000 employees wow, really diverse group. Both. Nds you both University of Miami had distributed I. T. And rightfully so because there’s certain colleges that need specific type hardware, software type things in order to do their work in research. So there you work with them instituting guarantees what their wants and trying to match that with the security standards and the federal standards in place. So that’s there’s a lot of challenges. There are a lot of work. They work with faculty. Faculty have a specific ideas and trying to blend what their ideas are on the freedom of research and education along with what is mandated with federal and state laws. Um gets to be interesting. Uh University of Miami, I worked with one of the law professors regarding policies and standards and I would write he would rewrite and I would rewrite and then he would rewrite again.

[00:21:05] Brad Nigh: I bet that was a fun back and forth because you know from my experience, lawyers don’t like policies to begin with because they’d rather just argue their way out of something. And then the faculty is like I’ve got 10 year, I’m not going to do that.

[00:21:22] Theresa Semmens: That’s part of it. I did learn a lot. His um he was dr Frumkin, what is his name? And um towards the end I got to the point where I could, I guess pretty much what he was going to require or what he wanted. So I would write it in that way and then we would go back on forth on the finer points worked out pretty good. I learned a lot from him so I can say I I respected him from the beginning and I respected him even more when it was done because he taught me as much as he did.

[00:22:05] Evan Francen: Yeah, well I remember right, It was such a great um privilege to come down and see you down there.

[00:22:12] Theresa Semmens: Oh, it’s a privilege to have. You

[00:22:15] Evan Francen: know, it was so fun. I I still think about just like the Cuban restaurant, I can’t remember the name of that place where you told me to go,

[00:22:24] Theresa Semmens: oh Havana Harry’s, Oh

[00:22:25] Evan Francen: My gosh! That actually Brad. They had a Cuban. It was like this big, it was like $7.

[00:22:33] Theresa Semmens: Oh yeah, they’re they’re plates would feed three people.

[00:22:38] Evan Francen: No, I still have the mug uh and I still have the socks that you gave me his gifts for.

[00:22:45] Theresa Semmens: Oh my gosh!

[00:22:47] Evan Francen: Yeah, that was awesome. And I was coming to see you at uh in key this year. But you know, Covid thanks to brad, you know for starting Covid,

[00:22:59] Theresa Semmens: When can we say um you’re training for the nist cybersecurity framework was very well received. We are in the process of following through the recommendations for putting a committee together to go through the cybersecurity framework in the term when what is most relevant for us and we’re going to be looking into security studio, we’re going to be doing that. So um you provided us with a lot of resources that we can use. We really appreciate it.

[00:23:34] Evan Francen: Well, it’s just one of those things and when you have such a good relationship with somebody, you know, in this industry, uh I mean you can do really cool things together site, you know, it’s fun working with you. I appreciate it.

[00:23:46] Theresa Semmens: Thank you. Were small

[00:23:47] Evan Francen: place. Yeah. Alright, sorry, brad. We were you were supposed to be leading and we’re just talking and

[00:23:54] Brad Nigh: you know what’s funny is I almost said something last week, I was like, do you want to leave because you and Theresa know each other really well and I’ll leave next week and then I forgot to say something.

[00:24:02] Theresa Semmens: So yeah,

[00:24:06] Brad Nigh: so I guess So. What we’ve heard or heard from the previous seven guesses, you know, the ratio of men to women is about 75, Uh is that do you see that in higher ed as well or is it different because we’ve all had, we’ve had private industry and

[00:24:30] Theresa Semmens: I think it’s the same, I think it’s 75, We have more younger women coming in that want to want to get um entry into the field and I’ve noticed that they are in serious need of mentors and guides. Um they tend to want to please more um So working with them, you have to guide them in the right direction, you have to um what do I want to say? Uh just get going and keeping their their spirit up, keeping them excited about what they’re doing. I’m working with one on my team now, she’s a lot of fun, I give her a project and she just runs with it. Um she’s the one, I’m not afraid to let her take the lead. She comes back and she says Theresa um this is what I’ve learned, she does all of her vulnerability scanning and when she hits a problem where she hits the road black or a hiccup, she digs into it. I mean she’s just like a little go for going for it, she’s not gonna let go until she’s got that problem solved, which I think is amazing. Um I noticed the same thing at the University of Miami, we had hired two new um security analysts or engineers just before I left and they were both eager to learn both of them have master’s degrees, they’ve gone on, but they wanted to get in on the ground and they wanted to do it, you know, learning from the ground up and they were both interested in the technical side, which is we’re seeing more and more of is the girls want to do more technical stuff, more of the coding, more of the scanning, more of the setting things up, configuring, applying that type of thing, and I think we need to work with them in those areas. Okay. Another great thing we’ve done is we have we have hired students and the students are always eager to learn and and they don’t they want to get their hands dirty, they want to learn. So there’s a lot of fun to watch their eagerness to see them get started, see them get interested, and even if they don’t stay in security, they’ve got that background. So when they do start a new position, they’ve already got that awareness built in so that when they start doing something, it’s in the back of their mind set so they can add it in when they’re within your position that they’re doing.

[00:27:06] Evan Francen: Yeah, I agree. You know, because information security now is a life skill, right? So even if you’re not an information security practitioner, meaning you don’t get paid for this, you still have information security stuff, right? You’re still you’re still responsible for securing your home internet connection, uh you know, all your IOT devices that you’re plugging into the network all the time, your own computer, so you’re right, even if they don’t stay in security, there’s still so much value for them.

[00:27:38] Theresa Semmens: Yeah, it’s almost it’s almost becoming a life skill, like you mentioned the IOT the the digital home, all of that, if you don’t know what you’re doing, you’re opening yourself up to some serious repercussions doesn’t take much for someone to hack in and really do some damage,

[00:27:57] Evan Francen: right? You know, like the homestead back in Fargo, you know, was much more secure than now you have an internet connection, right? I mean you can control that security, but you just introduced, you know, other things that you need to think about.

[00:28:12] Theresa Semmens: That’s right, okay.

[00:28:14] Brad Nigh: And even even if they don’t stay in security, just whatever profession they end up in having that security background is going to make, you know, wherever they work more secure, right?

[00:28:25] Theresa Semmens: Not only that when they started, you know, you have all of that orientation that you go through, where you have to go through all of the training and it’s all pushed at you in what, 23 days you’re supposed to remember it for the rest of your career that never works. It’s something that has to be ongoing. So if they’ve already started with it, they, like I said, they’ll continue that ongoing. So

[00:28:52] Evan Francen: Uh huh Well, one of the things you mentioned to, which I think is a common theme that we’ve heard brad is mentorship, women entering our field, know your opinion Theresa, do you think women, because I think we all need mentorship, but do you think women in our field could use it more than maybe the men just in your opinion, just because there’s less women, I mean, in our industry, your women are a minority.

[00:29:23] Theresa Semmens: I think anyone starting out in any field, whether it’s information security, whether it’s business, whether it’s a trade such as welding needs to have a mentor or a coach, someone who takes an interest in them and helps guide them along their career path. Um not you know, not necessarily just what you’re doing great, you’re doing good, It’s it’s building them, helping them learn those new skills, encouraging them to challenge themselves so that they continue to grow. Um women sometimes get, forgive me for saying this left out because it is, You know, it is primarily like you said 75, So when a young woman comes into the field, sometimes the guys don’t know how to react to her or they’re scared to to to guide her. So I think if we can get rid of some of that unconscious bias, it will it will become more stronger, more enforcing it. It’ll help build not only those who are coming in and needed that guidance, but it’s also gonna build those who are giving the guidance and the coaching.

[00:30:53] Evan Francen: That’s a great, that’s vice. Yeah, the because we had to do the same thing here brad where we had to, you talk about unconscious bias, you have to be intentional. Mhm. You know, to fight that until it becomes more kind of natural, right? Until that bias sort of wanes and goes away, we had to do the same thing here. I remember the first women we hired here, we did it on purpose, there wasn’t like, oh, we just accidentally hired a woman. It was, we look for them.

[00:31:30] Brad Nigh: Yeah. And I think from the consulting side, you know, team side of it, we’ve got, It’s about almost 5050, it’s about 60, 40 men to women and you know, we already have identified when we’re ready to hire. I’ve got somebody in mind. It’s another another woman. But the communication, uh, skills and stuff are, it’s just, it’s very different, right? It just seems to be more natural, uh, for a lot of the women versus, you know, some of the guys that we see and from the technical side of things. And so that’s a great addition to the team is being able to have, have something that can, you can bounce things off of them, get get some good feedback or they’re just really good at delivering that bad news in a good way.

[00:32:25] Evan Francen: That’s true.

[00:32:26] Theresa Semmens: You bring up a great point though. You’re talking about soft skills and that’s something everybody in the technology field needs to hone or practice or learn. Um, communications a strong one, whether it’s speaking, active listening, writing whatever those are three key skills that you need to have in order to be successful in the field, you might be the greatest technical wizard ever. But if you can’t get your point across to someone who is totally non technical or who is just coming in and learning it, um you’re not helping build, build the field, you’re not helping with getting others interested and fired up about what it is they want to do. I didn’t mention the students, we had, we started this at NDS you and we also did you in Miami, we had 23 students that came in, No, four students that came in, their majors were not technology. All four of them went on to accept a position in the information security field.

[00:33:41] Brad Nigh: Nice. Yeah. What’s interesting is, I think we have a really good team, you know, for communicating, but it’s just the different wave that, you know, some women on the team, look at things and how they articulate it is just, you know, even from myself, like, well here’s what I think and how do I say this and come up with some other way? I’m like, yeah, that’s really cool, I never would have thought of that, Right? So definitely good to see that,

[00:34:15] Theresa Semmens: right? When you bring in diversity, whether it’s it’s whichever kind of diversity you want to call it, um, you bring in different mindsets, you bring in different critical thinking skills and like you said, you bring in the different ways of communication, um you have three different people, you have one problem to solve, they’re probably going to have one way to solve it, but they’re going to communicate it in three different ways.

[00:34:43] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Uh so going back with the ratio, one of the things that stuck out the most even through seven weeks now is when we had victoria on and she had mentioned she was transitioning from the insurance industry to information security and she had a friend who was a recruiter who told her she was like I’m in a paraphrase here but basically she was looking and asking if you know hey can I get into security, can I get hired? And he basically said well you’re you’re smart and you’re good looking, yes you’ll get a job. What? Yeah that was a recruiter,

[00:35:23] Evan Francen: your reaction that your reaction is the same exact reaction that brad and I had like

[00:35:28] Brad Nigh: well what

[00:35:29] Evan Francen: who would say that? I mean it’s just there’s no place for that but

[00:35:33] Brad Nigh: so yeah so with that in what we’ve heard consistently is kind of that bro culture and so have you ever experienced anything like that or seen you know the that bro culture you have any stories around that I’m gonna go with? Yes

[00:35:52] Evan Francen: now you can tell on her face

[00:35:56] Theresa Semmens: oh my oh my

[00:35:59] Evan Francen: well it’s just a bro culture we’ve heard we’ve heard not just that

[00:36:02] Theresa Semmens: I guess. Yeah I’m going to go back to the unconscious bias thing and I’ll share your story and I won’t say where it happened but we had a situation and we had met and there was everybody from the different departments were sitting there and I recommended a solution and I was the only female in that group, the restaurant mail and they shot it down. No I couldn’t work. Not five minutes later one of the gentlemen brought up the exact same solutions. It was almost verbatim and it was the best idea since sliced bread so that you know it it’s not intentional but it does happen and at that point I was just glad that was going to be utilized because that was the solution that was gonna work and as long as they were all on board, I didn’t care whose idea it was just as long as it got done. So sometimes you just have to look beyond that. Not that I like to Mhm. But in order to make things work and in order to have that team collegial collaborative nature, you have to blend, you have to give and you have to share. So

[00:37:34] Brad Nigh: that’s got to be frustrating. You’re not the first person in the series, the first woman to say that either. So I hope I’ve never done that if I have, it was definitely not intentional. But yeah, that’s

[00:37:46] Theresa Semmens: I think it comes from um the way we were raised, like all three of us are probably raised in the midwest. Right? So our dads were probably farmers or business owners, that kind of thing and they were raised by the traditional generation where the man was the head of the household. So I think a lot of that plays in because it kind of gets into our D. N. A. And it just sort of filters on down. We just need to be more aware of it.

[00:38:19] Evan Francen: It’s funny you mentioned that because I uh I grew up in a military family and I was talking to my mother who is still you know still around and she was uh she worked at IBM in the I think she probably started in the 70s maybe. Uh Yeah so she was kind of a pioneer in her own sense but I was telling her about this sounds like so did you you know growing in your career you know did you run into you know the kind of the bias you know with women man and what was it like you know I was just trying to understand and this is the same woman by the way who called me intolerant and a bigot

[00:39:01] Theresa Semmens: once. Same lady that hard to believe.

[00:39:05] Evan Francen: She did say it but then I was like I don’t know if you’re using those words

[00:39:10] Brad Nigh: right?

[00:39:12] Evan Francen: So but I was asking her that and she said uh the thing that was really interesting that she said was in the military there is no man or woman, they treat them all the the same. And I was like really so she was she was in the marines In the 60s and my father was in the marines from 57 to 78. So that’s where they actually met my mother worked for my father in the marine corps. Oh but I thought it was really interesting how she and I am paraphrased too hot. That’s what basically what she said is that in the military there was no man woman thing right? That you all got treated the same. Yeah I thought well it’s kind of cool because you keep saying bias I want, you know if that’s the military way that’s intentional right? They that’s how they do things and maybe we need a little bit more of that. Maybe this is how we do things um and it’s gonna feel awkward at first because it’s new to you but once you get used to it it’s just the way things are done. I

[00:40:18] Brad Nigh: don’t know I still think judy’s uh advice or whatever for hiring where the when they when hR screened the resume when they sent it to the higher manager they stripped all the identifying information off. No name, email address anything. It was just the job like the experience and Yeah I think that’s something we probably should look at implementing more places you would get better candidates because you’re going to get rid of a lot of that bias of a name or whatever it might be.

[00:40:54] Evan Francen: Yeah a lot

[00:40:55] Theresa Semmens: of companies starting to do that now where they strip all of that off and you all you see is what the experiences in the education and go from there.

[00:41:07] Evan Francen: Well, I think we found it another thing that I think is really, it seems like today in the United States anyway, there’s a lot less respect for people, uh I think if you just treat people with respect, like, and, you know, so if I said something that offended you, Theresa, we have a we have enough respect for each other where you would tell me, you know, I think I hope

[00:41:33] Theresa Semmens: first, so you would do the same.

[00:41:34] Evan Francen: Yeah. And it but it comes respecting somebody for who they are, you know?

[00:41:41] Theresa Semmens: Well, I listened to um your podcast with, I forgot her name now, she’s friends of mine, she knows just started a new business. She talked about kindness and I think kindness and respect, or to an honesty, There are three things that you really need to be successful um in addition to the other items, but those are personal things, the kindness and the honesty and the respect. They need to come from inside and you need to be genuine about them. And when people understand that your genuine, I think they react to you in the same way. Um, you know, you get what you get what you you give is that adage. So if you’re going to be kind and respectful, thoughtful to others and honest, we will most likely get that back from them. And I think that those things are critical. You need that

[00:42:37] Evan Francen: Yeah, I agree. And I think, you know, one of the things we do on the we do have the security shit show on thursday nights and we call people out, no by name, but call out certain bad behaviors, you know, industry. And I think another thing that we can do and I’m saying this, but I’m also asking this to get your opinion. Yeah, another thing we can do is defend each other, defend good behaviors. Right? So if somebody were to say something disparaging about Theresa or anybody else in this industry, wouldn’t it be my sort of duty to say, hey, hold up, you don’t even know that person, You know what I mean? Instead of tearing them down. Um yeah, I can reach out to them in person.

[00:43:25] Theresa Semmens: And I think that goes not just within, within our profession, I think that goes within our whole lives. We have a tendency to um, and not, not necessarily we I’m not just saying, but people have a tendency sometimes to, I don’t know if it’s because their self esteem is so low that they want to tear other people down to make them come up or what? But I think like I said, the kindness and the honesty and the respect goes a long, long way and I’m going to tie this back to some of the coaching and mentoring. I’ve worked with staff who have been told when I when I would come on board, you’re probably going to need to think about getting rid of them because they’re not productive. Mm And I go, really? Yeah. So then already they’ve already created a bias in my mind. Okay. What, what, what am I going to have to deal with here? So when I start to visit with that person whom I’m going to be providing coaching and guidance, I don’t like to say oversight or management of which, which do, But to me, those are secondary. I need to understand that person. I need to get to know them on their basis. So I had success and I have had failures. Um, I’ve got one where I’ve, we decided that, you know what the technical part. No, he’s not so interested in her. She’s not so interested in it. So we moved them to compliance because they’re really good at interacting with people. They’re good at problem solving. They’re good at a few other things. But you know what? Maybe they’re not so good at writing a report or they’re not so good about putting an audit plan together. So that’s where you teach them and that’s where you get them fired up. You know, those are just, you know, ideas I’m throwing out there. But then again, there are some, I wonder why they got into the field just because they thought they were going to make good money if you’re in it for the money. Get out because this is not a position where you’re going to make good money. Yes. A salary is good, but you’re going to earn every dollar you make.

[00:45:59] Brad Nigh: Mm hmm.

[00:45:59] Theresa Semmens: So you better be in it because you love it. And because it’s your passion and because you’re driven to do it, not because of salary stood and Evan you’re a good example of that because you always say it’s not about the money. And I see that every time I work with you because you go that extra mile, you did it with the team here and she you came out and you said OK, go to the security sweep. Use these tools, use this. You didn’t try to sell us anything. You wanted to help us. We wanted to get us going in the right direction. And for that. I know every one of those people that were taking that course really appreciated it because they knew you were there because you cared.

[00:46:47] Evan Francen: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for a note. I really appreciate

[00:46:50] Theresa Semmens: you. So I don’t say anything. I don’t mean,

[00:46:56] Evan Francen: you know, I love it.

[00:46:58] Brad Nigh: Oh, I want to say anything and ruin this. Right? Was really nice.

[00:47:04] Evan Francen: My face turning more red.

[00:47:06] Theresa Semmens: You

[00:47:08] Evan Francen: could you could sense the passion entry when she was She’s in this for the same reason. She’s in this because she loves helping people. She loves protecting people. She loves doing things the right way. She doesn’t take shortcuts. I mean you can see it. That’s what we need.

[00:47:26] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I love the your approach of, you know, I think too many people dismiss that kind of the institutional knowledge if they’re not somebody who’s not in the right spot and they’re just like, well, it’s not a fit, get rid of them. But you know, there’s something to be said for. There is institutional knowledge and finding the right spot for somebody and understanding. Well, maybe it’s not technical, maybe it is here. Why don’t you try that? That’s just it’s refreshing to hear.

[00:47:54] Theresa Semmens: And some of them they got hired. You know, they want maybe they’re coming in as an analyst, but they want to go in another direction. But they’ve been stymied because the previous person didn’t see that and didn’t help guide them and that’s what they need to do.

[00:48:14] Brad Nigh: I’ve had luckily as far as I know it hasn’t happened to me, but I’ve got, you know, friends that have been told no, I’m not gonna let you transfer because It would make you do so much. You make me look good. I can’t afford to lose you and having them. And we’re talking like Fortune 100 organizations.

[00:48:35] Theresa Semmens: I’m sorry, my mouth just dropped because if that person has, if the manager has got it so that that person has really making him look good. That means he’s done a good job. He should allow them to move on and accept new challenges and then bring in some new fresh watch new people to guide and grow them as well. Your job as a manager as a leader is not to hold people still. It’s to grow them and move them. Consider yourself a success if somebody is leaving you for a better position

[00:49:14] Brad Nigh: And in this case they left, they were there for seven years and quit. Got a better job,

[00:49:23] Theresa Semmens: whoever it was

[00:49:25] Brad Nigh: them. Yeah. Yeah. But think about how much knowledge just gone because of, you know, somebody being selfish.

[00:49:36] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s true.

[00:49:39] Brad Nigh: Alright.

[00:49:41] Theresa Semmens: Next company really benefited,

[00:49:44] Brad Nigh: right? Very much so. Um, so it’s, we keep hearing that there’s not enough women in security. What can we do to recruit more? You’re saying you’re seeing a lot more, uh, in higher ed, younger women getting into it, you know, what from a private sector, What can we do to encourage it? What are you seeing this working really well that you’re seeing this influx?

[00:50:17] Theresa Semmens: I think it’s our younger generation are being more willing to, to look at diversity and change and accept the different ideas. You have to have an open mind if you don’t have that open mind if you don’t have that open, open, um, that process. Um, it’s going to hold you back. So it, so you have to open your mind up, allow them, you’re going to learn both ways. Put it this way. So by hiring more females, you’re going to, um, broaden your thinking, so to speak. You’re going to broaden your skill set, not only in soft skills, but in technical skills as well, because sometimes women have a way of doing things that are different from the way the guys do it well and it works. So I think there needs to be that welcoming exchange between both of them, not just, you know, male to female, male or vice versa, it’s just got to work both ways. So once that happens, then you’re going to see A lot of change in a lot of growth. We already are seeing changing growth. We even with 75 25 ratio, we are seeing a lot of growth and I think over the years you’re going to see that ratio continued to shrink, its going to get less and less. It already has because it used to be For every 100 Technicians, only 18 were women. So you’re already telling me there’s 75 men and 25 women. So it’s already starting to change and I think it will continue to change. We have to get the girls beyond the mindset that they can’t do math or they don’t understand science or that they are geared to do math or science. We need to encourage more of the skim and make sure that that continues through college. Um when the kids are in high school girls are very activist them, they like what they’re doing and once they get to college, something stops there And what was 50% women all of a sudden drops down, to and I’m just using figures For uh 30% women And then when they graduate and they get out into the workforce all of a sudden that drops down to 20%. Why is it? You know, what are those reasons? I know a lot of them say uh I heard a lot of them say that they didn’t feel welcome or they didn’t feel that they belonged. So what do we need to change their, how do we need to change that mindset? So they do feel welcome. They do feel like they belong. They do feel like they’re part of whatever their culture is for the business that they’ve gone into

[00:53:20] Evan Francen: well, and I think what we can do because we’re, you know, being that were men in this industry, we are the majority, right? And whenever you’re in the majority, you have you have the ability to use it for good or bad, right? Bad examples would be, you know, to make people feel uncomfortable, right? To say things that are hurtful to others. Uh and that might come from unconscious bias. It might come from my own insecurity, it might come from whatever uh huh. You know, But I think as as men in this industry, we can be more welcoming, we can we can be more respectful, we can you’re so uh insecure in your own abilities that you need to put somebody else down and make you feel better, okay, turn that around and get some education, get a book, you know what I mean? That’s the healthy way to do it instead of putting somebody down. Because for me, if I ever saw, because some of the things that I’ve heard in this in this series have been kind of heartbreaking, I mean when you hear somebody who feels unwelcome, what brad you’ve been in places, I’ve been in places where I felt unwelcome holy crap and what’s the first thing I want to do? I want to get the hell out of there. So woman’s feeling that in an industry, Oh my God,

[00:54:43] Theresa Semmens: yeah, you don’t leave a position because of the job. Usually leave it, leave it because of the manager, the supervisor, that’s what happens. And I want to say it isn’t just men I have worked under women who have been nasty as well, that’s the best word I can use. Um they have so many insecurities that, you know, the people underneath them are hurt by it.

[00:55:15] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Well I think it’s you know, if you’re in a position to say something and affect positive change, you should, but I think it’s hard to do that, right, A lot of people, it’s you’re putting yourself out there, it’s a lot of you here to just kind of be quiet and not say anything when when you see somebody getting, you know beat down or put down or belittled then it is to speak up, but I think we need more people to start speaking up and affecting that positive change, if you have that opportunity you should be doing and taking advantage of it,

[00:55:54] Theresa Semmens: and that’s where you also need that mentor and that coaches, that mentor and coach. Um I’ve had a lot of mentors and coaches and the majority of them have not been within the workplace, I have reached out to others and ask for their advice as for their honest opinion and and they helped me grow a great deal. I think if you’re gonna look for mentors and coaches as you’re just starting out, you not only need them in The work, the workplace where you’re at, but you also need to reach beyond that workplace because you need to get a full 360° view, so that’s critical. Um you want, you want to do that and it’s not hard, you can go into some groups, there are several groups out there, technical groups, uh C I O groups see, so groups um edge, because has really done a nice job with that, as far as putting groups together, putting people together, you feel safe reaching out to them and that’s it, you need that safety net, I guess is what I’m trying to say where you can reach out and you can say, hey, I’m having an issue with this, can I talk to you, and usually they come back and sometimes you’re going to hear what you don’t want to hear other times you’re going to hear exactly what you’re because you know in your heart that’s what you were supposed to be doing and they just gave you that affirmation to go ahead and do it um within your workforce, you need that coach mentor to help guide you. So you don’t make some of the serious mistakes as you’re trying to move forward in your career. I don’t know about you guys, but I made some real booze in my lifetime and trying to fix them. I mean sometimes you it will take a lifetime to fix them because for whatever reason, so it’s just my two cents,

[00:57:52] Evan Francen: I made some real boo boos The last 48 hours. So

[00:57:57] Theresa Semmens: like a scrunched up Harley Huh, technically. Well we’re just grateful you didn’t get hurt.

[00:58:05] Evan Francen: Oh thank you. Yeah, I am

[00:58:07] Brad Nigh: too. Mhm. Alright, so kind of wrapping up any other women’s issues uh come to mind that you want to talk about anything just at all. Maybe diving women’s issues, Just anything at all that you kind of want to wrap up with parting words.

[00:58:24] Theresa Semmens: Um Just that

[00:58:27] Evan Francen: Sorry, whatever. Not even parting words, we’ve got news to

[00:58:30] Brad Nigh: still but from the interview portion,

[00:58:33] Theresa Semmens: from the interview portion. Okay um All right now, like kristen judge said, I finally remembered her name and she’s a cool cool lady, right? Oh yeah, she just needs um she talked about kindness. You see the mix, Mixing kindness, be kind be honest, be thoughtful. Um Do your work with with pride, All of those things are important. And the other thing is to take care of yourself. No. You know, if you don’t you can you can bury yourself in your work and maybe that is your passion, but you also need passion outside of what your profession is, whether it’s scooting down that Harley in a wooded highway or uh digging in the sand here in las Vegas and trying to grow things. By the way, I’ve got great roast was just um you know, whatever it is you like, you like my C. I. O. Loves to go horseback riding. She’s recently bought a horse here and she’s training for competition. Mhm. That’s good. You know, it’s like, like I say, take care of yourself, especially in these trying times. Um You need to give yourself some self care. You need to give yourself some forgiveness. You know, you can’t, nobody is perfect. You have to accept you have to accept that there’s going to be a few glitches in that you might not ever look perfect in any ship. Just be who you are.

[01:00:06] Evan Francen: There you go love

[01:00:07] Brad Nigh: it. That’s great advice, yep. I love it. All right, so, thank you very much. A really good advice there. We’re gonna talk about some news, so chime in uh just kind of a couple of them really only three things um that we’re going to talk about but first was some follow up on the twitter hack from last month now. Uh It was interesting there was it was a teenager like 17 that like this and it was all basically social engineering, they called twitter and got accounts. So

[01:00:48] Evan Francen: dude I told you you know there was so much speculation, this was a state sponsored thing and I was like there’s no way in hell

[01:00:53] Brad Nigh: No, but it’s crazy that 17 year old in Tampa and then a 22 year old And uh out of Orlando and a 19 year old in the UK. Um Yeah they not not they’re facing a long time.

[01:01:12] Theresa Semmens: I just wish they would have put those skills to better use

[01:01:15] Brad Nigh: right? But

[01:01:17] Theresa Semmens: we lost

[01:01:19] Evan Francen: uh you know a lot of people in our industry do get a second chance so maybe they’ll get a second chance and they make good on it. I think the Neema fizzles uh nickname is hilarious. Rolex. Yeah, do you have a nickname of Rolex? You probably have your priorities wrong.

[01:01:41] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Right. No. Uh so yeah they said that they targeted a small number of employees phone spear phishing attack. They got uh internal access and create uh employee credentials and the guy 130 Twitter accounts. They tweeted from 45 access, the direct message inbox of 36 and downloaded the Twitter data of seven. So not a huge

[01:02:10] Theresa Semmens: but it’s not like they were pretty important twitter

[01:02:13] Brad Nigh: account. Very very very targeted. I think they said they got what several $100,000 in uh Bitcoin.

[01:02:22] Evan Francen: It also shows you how novice they are right when you gained access to these accounts and then you almost immediately use them. I mean you didn’t right, you could have done so much more with this kind of access but I guess you know in your nicknames? Rolex, this is what you do.

[01:02:41] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah they’re so they’re facing, gosh a long times of the jailer wire commit conspiracy to commit wire fraud, conspiracy to commit money laundering An intentional access of a protected computer. And that charge alone could add up to 20 years in jail and a $250,000 fine

[01:03:04] Theresa Semmens: wow.

[01:03:05] Brad Nigh: No.

[01:03:06] Evan Francen: Well that’s what happens. I mean don’t if you’re gonna piss people off, don’t piss off powerful people right? And if you’re gonna piss off powerful people get away with it, don’t you know? Yeah you’re powerful people right? They’re not happy.

[01:03:20] Theresa Semmens: No they got friends in high places.

[01:03:26] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah when you’re when you’re hitting some of those people that they hit with. Yeah that’s not not not who you want to uh coming after you

[01:03:38] Evan Francen: know and it’s almost good that the police do have you now because any one of those people I could just make you disappear.

[01:03:44] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah and they have the resources to find out who you are. So

[01:03:51] Evan Francen: Oh yeah. Yeah. They know they knew probably about the same time as law enforcement maybe earlier. Yeah.

[01:03:59] Brad Nigh: So now at least there’s some I guess justice so that hopefully that that’s the end of it. All right. Uh Second story was off of info sec magazine. Ohio researcher admits to selling secrets to china. Scientifics trade seekers from or is it from the nationwide Children’s hospital research institute? It was legion and usual. Both worked for that. The Research Institute for 10 years from 7 to 17 and the late 18. And then yeah, they were. The one thing I was bummed about out of this article is it didn’t say how they got caught. I mean it doesn’t look like there’s a whole lot of hiding going on. They so they monetize one of the trade secrets by making and selling eggs, ozone isolation kits and then they set up a company in china to sell the kids. So I’m guessing that that’s yeah, it’s pretty blatant but

[01:05:05] Evan Francen: Well the thing is I mean I wish we would wake up a little bit more and realize that china is an enemy of the United States. There an adversary. Not that all chinese people. Right. So you got to have to have the ability to separate. Uh Unfortunately this is going to lead to things like this will lead to a lot of discrimination I think against chinese americans people that are legitimately here and don’t work for the chinese government. But for those who do work for the chinese government, it’s they’re stealing trade secrets left and right. I don’t know how many the FBI is opening 50 some odd cases a week or something. Uh Pretty theft.

[01:05:49] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah. It says that she stole from the institute after receiving payments from the chinese government. So exactly that

[01:06:00] Evan Francen: and nothing happens in china. Nothing happens in china without the chinese government knowing about period. Yeah.

[01:06:08] Brad Nigh: So part of it, part of the plea deal and it didn’t really say There’s not a lot of details in this article. I’m gonna have to dig some more. But um part of the plea was she agreed to forfeit 1.4 million dollars together with 500,000 shares of common stock of Avalon Global core, our global care and 400 shares of Gin Excel in technology. So financially that’s pretty big. I don’t know what if the chinese government’s gonna cover that difference. But

[01:06:43] Evan Francen: no she doesn’t care. You know, I mean if you see the way chinese people who are actually working for the chinese government work, you know they’re not motivated by money. Sure. Take all the money. They don’t care.

[01:06:58] Brad Nigh: Mhm complaint.

[01:07:00] Evan Francen: I mean it’s so that’s disappointing to see that’s part of the plea agreement. Uh I mean the only way to get data back that’s been lost or stolen is to make the data no longer valuable. Unfortunately a lot of this research data you can’t make no longer value. Well you’re kind

[01:07:18] Theresa Semmens: of intellectual

[01:07:19] Evan Francen: property, yep, damage is done.

[01:07:22] Brad Nigh: Yeah. How many years of research and everything just gone

[01:07:28] Theresa Semmens: right, visit with an export control officer, whether it’s fine for a university or otherwise, they can provide you with a lot of information on what, what they experience and what they go through.

[01:07:43] Evan Francen: Oh yeah. You know, maybe we should have served on that just because one of the things if you should be doing this regardless of whether you have chinese americans who work for you or not. Right, it’s egress traffic filtering, it’s some sort of data loss prevention. Will you go with a homegrown solution or you buy a solution? But if you see any traffic going to china? Mhm Right. And especially like us. Right, we’re fr secure were in minnetonka Minnesota, why would we have anything anywhere communicating with china period? No, you see something Okay, red flag, you know, that’s one way to exfiltrate data. The other way to exfiltrate that data obviously is you know, physically um mm so you know there are strategies to combat that as well, but even just something simple like egress traffic filtering, most organizations don’t have that even in place. They have no idea. Yeah,

[01:08:40] Brad Nigh: now, no, very true. Alright, last one very quickly. Um just a heads up more than anything, is that a motet is returning after a five month hiatus so it’s back. You wear

[01:08:53] Theresa Semmens: our friend is back.

[01:08:55] Brad Nigh: Yeah. What’s interesting is there was one I guess there was uh vulnerability or they found that the password and people were downloading and putting somebody was hacking the payloads of being attacked and putting in gifts and like various random gifts for that. So it’s pretty funny but it is back and we are seeing it, so just be aware and maybe a good time to do some reeducation. A few users,

[01:09:25] Theresa Semmens: we may be in isolation but the various hackers, crackers, whatever you want to call them, they’re working overtime right now.

[01:09:35] Brad Nigh: Yeah, so alright, well that’s it for episode 91. Thank you. Get Theresa for joining us and making the installment of Women in security series, a very special one. Do either of you have any shout outs to give this week

[01:09:51] Evan Francen: and then I’m gonna give a shout out to my wife. Uh you know I haven’t I don’t think I’ve given her a shot yet on the on the podcast but she’s um really kept the fort down, you know and all the craziness that you have that we have in the world, it’s so nice to have some place where I can go to find normal even if it’s just in A five square foot area. So yeah, shout out to my wife, she keeps me going

[01:10:18] Brad Nigh: okay, do you see anyone

[01:10:21] Theresa Semmens: shout out to my husband who like Evan’s life? He keeps support down and she used to be saying and shout out to both daughters and my grandsons who call me grandma t oh damn. I have lots of I mean they give me a lot of joy. Cool.

[01:10:40] Brad Nigh: Yeah. I think I’m gonna give a shout out to my daughter’s for actually sticking with it and helping me build and actually listening and learning and It’s kind of nice. You know, they’re 14 and 12. I’m gonna take advantage of them actually paying attention to me while I can. Oh yeah look too fast,

[01:10:59] Theresa Semmens: definitely enjoy

[01:11:00] Brad Nigh: that. So they did a great job helping me though. Um So it was funny. All right, well thank you to all our listeners. Keep the questions and feedback coming. So just things by email at unsecurity@protonmail.com. Social type. You can socialize with us on twitter. I’m @BradNigh Evan is @EvanFrancen. Uh Theresa how do you want people to find you if they’re looking

[01:11:27] Theresa Semmens:  just email my my work email address um 77@nbc.nevada.edu and I’m also on linkedin. So yes.

[01:11:46] Brad Nigh: Lastly be sure to follow our show on twitter @UnsecurityP and follow the companies we work for security Studios @StudioSecurity and FR Secure @FRSecure. That’s it. And talk to you all again next week.