Cybersecurity for Girls and Their Experiences (Part 4)

Unsecurity Podcast

Episode 87 marks part four of UNSECURITY’s Cybersecurity for Girls series. This week, Evan and Brad chat with Kristin Judge, the current founder and CEO of the Cybercrime Support Network. With experience well beyond her current role, they talk about what the industry has been like from her perspective, advice for people starting out, and the claimed talent shortage that exists.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:22] Brad Nigh: Welcome back. This is episode 87 of the insecurity podcast and I’m your host this week Brad Nigh. Today is July six and joining me this morning as usual is Evan Francen morning.

[00:00:36] Evan Francen: Good morning brad. How are you? All right. Am I suppose to say more? Did you want me to say more?

[00:00:38] Brad Nigh: Nice. Hopefully you took the weekend off to relax.

[00:00:42] Evan Francen: Right?

[00:00:44] Brad Nigh: Yeah,

[00:00:45] Evan Francen: hopefully wishful thinking actually to uh see my mother in Ohio.

[00:00:53] Brad Nigh: It’s taking it off. Maybe not relaxing, but you took off.

[00:00:57] Evan Francen: No, I got there and she had a list of like 20 things

[00:01:00] Kristin Judge: visiting family is never vacation.

[00:01:04] Evan Francen: No,

[00:01:06] Brad Nigh: so we have an incredible guests this week are fourth in the women insecurity series. Our first guest from outside the fr secure family and she was going to have some great stories, the wonderful insights to share. There’s a long bio including former Washington. Uh All right. Good County Commissioner, the center for an internet Security Director of partner engagement and executive Director of trusted purchasing alliance.

[00:01:34] Kristin Judge: Wow. Yeah, I don’t like short titles. Former

[00:01:38] Brad Nigh: national cyber security alliance Director of special projects and government affairs. The former principal and owner of

[00:01:45] Kristin Judge: Yes, Nice.

[00:01:48] Brad Nigh: Save the current cyber security a Yeah, well I got that. Right. And then I can’t mess up current current cybersecurity, author of numerous education awareness courses and current ceo president and founder of the cybercrime Support network Kristin judge. Good morning.

[00:02:04] Kristin Judge: Good morning. That’s enough. Thank you.

[00:02:06] Evan Francen: I could have kept going.

[00:02:10] Kristin Judge: Yeah they can read about it if they’re interested.

[00:02:13] Brad Nigh: Yeah there are links to believe your linked in in the show notes. So there you go. Um So we do have a tradition around here before we really dive in. We catch up with each other and recap what happened last week? So you wanna go first? What would you do last week? Besides you know the to do list at your mom’s house?

[00:02:33] Evan Francen: Yeah. Besides that. Uh Well we road tripped me and my wife and my youngest daughter. So 15 year old uh video. We road tripped Wednesday we left in the morning, made it there, Wednesday night spent the week. Oh crap what else? So I wouldn’t pick up my Harley that was busted. Uh So got that back home on Tuesday night just started tearing into it yesterday. Um Yeah just stuff about a lot of work last week in terms of like meetings just you know home stuff. Probably. That’s good. Yeah. How about you?

[00:03:10] Brad Nigh: Uh Actually was working on our new uh B. C. So approach and some tools for capacity planning and that would help it. So I kind of get to geek out a little bit and do some behind the scenes stuff. So it was fun.

[00:03:28] Evan Francen: Did you get a chance to talk to Tony?

[00:03:30] Brad Nigh: Uh no, our schedules didn’t work out last week. So I think it’s tomorrow Wednesday we have time on the calendar. So perfect timing. So I’m looking forward to that conversation.

[00:03:41] Evan Francen: Tony loves us, loves the mission and certainly has some good feedback being in his position as the, I guess it’s not officially see so but whatever at centric care, he’s got some really good feedback.

[00:03:53] Brad Nigh: Like I said, it couldn’t I’m hoping that his feedback aligns with what we’re planning. So fingers crossed, we’ll see.

[00:04:01] Evan Francen: Hope he doesn’t just let me know and I’ll drive out to his house and

[00:04:05] Brad Nigh: hopefully we listened to you.

[00:04:09] Evan Francen: I spent um six hours maybe in the car with him on Tuesday to go pick up the bike?

[00:04:18] Brad Nigh: Oh wow. That’s very cool.

[00:04:20] Evan Francen: Yeah. So I feel like we’re like so attached.

[00:04:24] Brad Nigh: Very cool. You don’t have a choice. And after six hours in the car. Either you’re attached or you never get to talk again.

[00:04:30] Evan Francen: Right? Well he texted me afterwards so I think we’re still good. I don’t know.

[00:04:35] Brad Nigh: That’s good. I’ll find out when we have our conversation. Mm True. Yeah. What about you christian would you do last week?

[00:04:46] Kristin Judge: Well during the week it’s monday to thursday. I thought it would slow down and people wouldn’t want to talk to us, but honestly, you know, being in in the area where you’re serving the victims of cyber crime and cyber crime is going up exponentially right now. We really aren’t slowing down but I did take friday off which was fantastic. It felt like a saturday because I haven’t taken friday off and probably years. So that felt really good. And then I did yard work and the pool. So an hour of yard work then you get really hot, you go in the pool you know. So I relaxed probably laying down on the raft just not doing anything for a total of maybe 45 minutes. So that’s about as much resting as I can handle. I’m pretty hyper so

[00:05:30] Brad Nigh: no

[00:05:31] Evan Francen: we have to hyper. People hear me you know and Ryan Kalu and now I include hello? Right Ryan cloak coat here and we’re both kind of we’re both A. D. H. D. Do you have that at all?

[00:05:49] Kristin Judge: Probably my son. My son does. He’s got to get it from somewhere. I can’t drink caffeine if I drink caffeine. I’m a maniac so I’m already hyper without it. So yeah.

[00:06:01] Evan Francen: Was it really hot in michigan this weekend?

[00:06:03] Kristin Judge: Was about 90 something. Okay. Yeah that’s why I had to go back and forth the pool or no work would have been done outside. That’s for sure.

[00:06:11] Brad Nigh: Right You

[00:06:13] Evan Francen: outside it all this weekend

[00:06:15] Brad Nigh: a little bit. But yeah it was just crazy. Hard

[00:06:18] Evan Francen: Like 350° or something

[00:06:20] Brad Nigh: With like 200% humidity.

[00:06:24] Kristin Judge: That’s what I’ll do. It. Yeah.

[00:06:26] Evan Francen: I couldn’t tell if it was sweat or my face melting

[00:06:29] Kristin Judge: a little bit of both. Probably,

[00:06:31] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I did a little bit. I got some of the yard and just did some light stuff outside. We went to the pond with the kids swimming pond. No, it’s good to get out and it wasn’t too crowded. People were doing a good job. Keeping distance.

[00:06:48] Kristin Judge: That’s good. How

[00:06:49] Evan Francen: about any fourth of july festivities, fireworks? Anything like that?

[00:06:55] Kristin Judge: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:59] Evan Francen: Can you do the big stuff in michigan?

[00:07:02] Kristin Judge: You’re technically not supposed to, but near us. They always do. Yeah. It’s one of those things that nobody polices it. So, yeah. Why don’t you go and buy it in? Ohio and bring it in your good.

[00:07:15] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s what we did. We, uh, but except for my mom’s dogs are just scared crap less by uh, fireworks. So we ended up buying them and then we got there like, oh, well I have fireworks and she’s like, no, you can’t. Mm. All right. Well, like I said, take him home to Minnesota where they’re illegal.

[00:07:34] Kristin Judge: I don’t know. I just don’t wanna Tuesday. No one will pay attention.

[00:07:38] Evan Francen: Yeah. I mean, I’m supposed to be a security guy running a company is supposed to be legal and stuff.

[00:07:43] Kristin Judge: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you should be legal insecurity and computer stuff. Don’t become a hacker. That’s important. Fireworks might be at a different level. True. Very

[00:07:52] Evan Francen: true.

[00:07:53] Brad Nigh: Well, very good catching up with everyone. We’ll go ahead and get started with the actual meat of the program. The reason people actually tune in.

[00:08:05] Evan Francen: You lost me a meat, what you

[00:08:08] Brad Nigh: say? I smoked pork steaks this weekend. Apple Bryant. It was so good. I’ll send you a picture.

[00:08:16] Evan Francen: Um are you a

[00:08:17] Kristin Judge: Mediator? We had homemade hamburgers yesterday. My 25 year old daughter made them for us with shallots and special sauce. It was so good. Oh

[00:08:26] Evan Francen: my Yeah, that’s too short.

[00:08:29] Kristin Judge: Anything. We don’t give up anything in our family.

[00:08:33] Brad Nigh: Oh then I had saw chris I got half a hog a couple a couple weeks ago so I’ve been slowly working through it. So we did uh it cut bacon yesterday morning for breakfast. Oh my gosh, it was so good.

[00:08:48] Kristin Judge: You’ll never go back to the other 1.00

[00:08:50] Brad Nigh: no. And cut it. The store is like nothing compared to this.

[00:08:54] Evan Francen: Do you have any left?

[00:08:56] Brad Nigh: Uh Yeah. Is that like nine packages of it?

[00:09:00] Evan Francen: Are you home?

[00:09:02] Kristin Judge: I hear an invitation for breakfast that Evans coming over

[00:09:07] Evan Francen: lives. He’s on the way to my house.

[00:09:10] Brad Nigh: It’s all frozen right now. So

[00:09:12] Evan Francen: that’s right. I’ll wait for it to thaw. Or just you see like a popsicle. Can I eat a

[00:09:18] Kristin Judge: popsicle? Well, that would not be good.

[00:09:22] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I’m probably not. All right. So it’s just the fourth week of our series discussing the topic of women in the information security industry. I know about you Evan. But personally I found the first three weeks to be really enlightening and like eye opening, even though we knew the three and kind of had an idea of what was going to say. There was some really like eye opening statements that were like, oh, okay,

[00:09:49] Evan Francen: it’s been incredible. I mean it’s far exceeded my expectations the first week with Renee sharing her experience. And that was our first introduction to how important it is I think for women to be strong. Uh and and you know, Renee, I mean she is a very strong business leader. And then um I had no idea that Lori had 35 years of experience,

[00:10:16] Brad Nigh: Basically raised four kids by herself while doing it like nuts. And but yeah, some of the stuff and then victoria with kind of the transition and being new in the industry was really some of her stories like

[00:10:31] Evan Francen: The one thing that stuck out with me from Victoria and I’m paraphrasing you’d have to go back and listen to episode 86, but it was where she shared with me, you know what she shared with us, how she had talked to her friend, the recruiter about, you know, exploring the opportunity of getting into information security and he said, yeah, there’s plenty of opportunity and you’re good on the eyes or something like that.

[00:10:56] Brad Nigh: You’re nice to look at

[00:10:58] Kristin Judge: That in 2020.

[00:10:59] Evan Francen: Yeah, right?

[00:11:00] Brad Nigh: It was like two years ago, a year and a half ago.

[00:11:03] Evan Francen: So, but that’s the first time I heard that in, in the series. And so it was like, oh my God, I can’t imagine that would never happen. No,

[00:11:13] Kristin Judge: that’s a recruiter sort of setting the stage, you know?

[00:11:16] Brad Nigh: Well, that’s, that was our reaction. Like what? Why would you? So it was very interesting. Uh but with that, I’m looking forward to hearing outsiders experience someone not from the fr secure family. So let’s dive in. I mean, first person to just give us a little bit of your background, how you got into the industry and

[00:11:38] Kristin Judge: yeah, well, I’m not a technologist, so that’s probably different from your other guests. I’m an interpreter. I call myself because it’s easy to know. Unfortunately more than most people in a room in cybersecurity because the general public doesn’t only pay attention to it as much as we’d like them to obviously. And I was a stay at home mom, I was a schoolteacher, you raised the kids and then no one would hire me because I had stayed home. I had two master’s degrees and I had so many women turned me down and say no, you really haven’t worked. So I ran for office and got elected because I had been really active in my community. So I’m a really weird way of getting to cyber and then when I was an elected official in 2000 and nine, I was at NEKO, the National Association of Counties meeting And even 40 something, I was the youngest person in the room. A lot of county commissioners are a little older And most of them were using email at the time yet in 2009 and the White House was looking for N Dhs, we’re looking for someone to help them teach elected officials about their role in cybersecurity, meaning budget and policy decisions. And so I was approached by someone who was detailed the White House and he asked if I would help him educate elected officials. So we met with governors, mayors, state representatives and I was really one of the first non technical people in that space, educating that group of people. So, um, you know, if I’d gotten into healthcare 11, 12 years ago, I certainly wouldn’t be a national speaker, I wouldn’t be someone who, you know, is working with the national leaders across the country on an issue because other people have been health care so much longer. But Being in cybersecurity the way I have been for the past 11, 12 years is there really aren’t a lot of other people who’ve done what I’ve done. So, you know, it’s really been such an incredible opportunity.

[00:13:32] Evan Francen: Well then it just goes to prove what we’ve always known is there is no one way into this industry.

[00:13:38] Brad Nigh: No,

[00:13:40] Kristin Judge: and there’s no one kind of job either. You know, people like, oh, I’m not a, I don’t know how to, I don’t know how to code, I don’t have a code, but I’m, you know, I’ve talked to some of the top cybersecurity specialists, ISOS in the country almost every day, you know, so there’s a lot of needs in the industry that don’t necessarily have to do with coding for sure layman’s terms there.

[00:14:01] Brad Nigh: Well, I can tell you see that the teacher background being just incredibly helpful because there’s a huge issue with communication, right? You know, you have some of these technical people that are just incredibly right, you know what they do, but they cannot communicate to the as having causing the normal people,

[00:14:22] Kristin Judge: right? Well, and elected officials pose a special concern because they can’t show vulnerability. They can’t show that they don’t understand something. So when I would meet with elected officials, they say, can you just give me three questions to ask my C. I O. Or my sister because I don’t want to look stupid and because they can’t look vulnerable, like they don’t know anything because they’re the ones making the rules and spending all the money. So it was really important for them to be able to speak about it intelligently. And that was what I could help them do. You know stay here, asked the CIA or this is so these three questions or maybe ask this is so to come to the board meeting once a quarter and update you on the great stuff that they’re doing, you know, um and so some of my favorite conversations where I had elected official and assist or c. I. O in the same room and I brought them together to talk for the very first time. They’ve never talked to each other, so that’s

[00:15:17] Evan Francen: that’s pretty cool. So are you still involved in education much? I mean in terms of like K- 12 or um

[00:15:24] Kristin Judge: so higher ed? Yes, I’m on the board of Detroit Mercy’s um university that focuses on cyber and information assurance. Um I do a lot of mentoring with students who are going into college or people coming out of the military looking to get into cyber and I still think we have a long way to go to make that path easier. Um and I’ve been involved with Nice, the National initiative on cybersecurity education out of missed from the very beginning. And they do an incredible job on workforce development issues for the federal government and for the whole country. It’s really they’re really the leader on that space. So I’m always involved with it.

[00:16:07] Evan Francen: Good for you, Ryan Ryan’s doing work with Nice too. So you probably cross paths if not formally, you will, I’m sure.

[00:16:16] Kristin Judge: Well, the founder of Nice, the first person who ran it was Ernest McDuffie and he just joined our board of directors. So I’m so excited, I’m such a fan. So

[00:16:26] Evan Francen: yeah, I love it.

[00:16:29] Brad Nigh: So tell me a little bit about the virus crime support network, what do you guys do now?

[00:16:37] Kristin Judge: We’re a nonprofit public private partnership. I know that’s an overused term, but we literally get about half our money from federal grants and half our money from private sector sponsorships like Microsoft and trend micro A T and T. Those kind of folks. Um, and I didn’t want to start another nonprofit to start another nonprofit. Actually didn’t want to leave my old job, But some people gave me some money for this one. Like somebody’s got to go run that company. So, um, I wanted to fill a space that no one else was taken care of and that is the millions and millions of consumers and small businesses that are impacted by cybercrime every year. They don’t know where to go. They call 911. I had a nine moment dispatch center asked me if I’d come train their dispatchers on how to answer these calls about romance scams and identity theft. And so we did some research and they said, just please give us a website we can send people to because we don’t like hanging up and say, I can’t help you. I mean they’re public servants. Um, so what we are working on it and I think being pretty successful is building the national infrastructure so that the public can call one number, uh, to get to where they need to go. And then FBI FTC DHS state and local cyber command centers can get the threat information and the crime information and we can actually count the victims because until we count them all, we can’t get Congress to act and give us funding to serve them. We can’t get more fusion center staff, we can’t get more state police staff that are cyber investigators or forensic specialists analysts. So we worked very closely with Congress to keeping them abreast of what we’re doing. And about eight months ago we got a cooperative agreement from Cisa chris Krebs group at DHS and we are helping to build the national infrastructure as a partnership with DHS And we just got refunded non competitively for year two. So we’re on our way

[00:18:32] Brad Nigh: there, That’s

[00:18:33] Evan Francen: really cool.

[00:18:34] Brad Nigh: Yeah, definitely. Something we’ve talked about evidence first. Such a data driven industry, there’s just not good data out there. It’s

[00:18:41] Kristin Judge: not

[00:18:43] Brad Nigh: how much does a british cost or how much does this happen? There’s just nothing out there,

[00:18:48] Kristin Judge: You know, and our partners at Internet Crime complaint centre, they do a great job. They had 450,000 complaints last year. And of those 450,000 complaints there, FBI for they lost $3.5 billion. Just those 450,000 people. So we estimate that if one in four americans are victims cybercrime, they’re losing 300 billion with a B every year. And that’s an economic crisis that no one’s talking about. So that’s what we want to get those people counted, we want to get them into the system. And if they actually have someplace to go to get help then they’ll actually go. But they just usually don’t think there’s anywhere to go.

[00:19:25] Brad Nigh: Yeah It’s crazy. So in 2016 somebody filed fraudulent tax returns from from

[00:19:32] Evan Francen: dude I apologize for that. I’m

[00:19:34] Kristin Judge: sorry I didn’t get a refund that day that year.

[00:19:38] Brad Nigh: So uh yes actually we were planning on moving up to Minneapolis and we filed luckily in february like early like mid february and that somebody had fired Phil. And I can only imagine if three who didn’t understand what was going on what it would have been like that. Like we filed like two days after so they hadn’t actually processed it yet. We

[00:20:02] Kristin Judge: got lucky and they have to file early. I always get my husband we have to file in february because someone else is going to if we don’t

[00:20:12] Brad Nigh: if we hadn’t and I mean but even then yeah we filed the local police report because you have to do that and the top couldn’t have cared less. Like I get it. There’s not

[00:20:21] Kristin Judge: Much he can thing. Yeah it’s not a tier one crime or whatever it’s called. So

[00:20:26] Brad Nigh: we had to have the police report number to file with the I. R. S. And track all that stuff and you know luckily the irish when we called them they were it was great. I mean they were fantastic and super helpful but I can only imagine not knowing security and understanding some of the technology and doing that and trying to navigate that. It would have been

[00:20:48] Kristin Judge: Yeah. What if you’re 78 and you really aren’t that computer savvy and you don’t have people you trust that you can ask about it. Where do you go and who’s going to hold your hand through all of it?

[00:20:58] Brad Nigh: You mail in a paper return and six months later they come back and say what’s going on? Yeah, I’ve

[00:21:04] Evan Francen: read it two stories where elderly people have committed suicide because of my ass. The

[00:21:12] Kristin Judge: yeah, unfortunately we’re starting a support group for senior victims of romance scams and Debbie Deem who was an FBI victim services agent in L. A. County started this all right before she retired. And I told her be my goal to make it a national program. And she said every one of the women that came to her support group after they had given away all their money, they were all suicidal. Yeah. Because if you’re 78 and you just gave away $250,000 your entire retirement, you can’t go back to work and make that back up. Your kids are blaming you that you you should have been smarter and now you can’t handle the checkbook. So they’re gonna take everything away from you and they’re mad at you and it’s just an awful place to be and it’s happening so frequently now, especially with the isolation everyone’s feeling and on our fraud support dot org website romance scams are the number one page that’s visited and people usually spend about eight minutes on that page, which are everything about website traffic. Eight minutes on any page is a lot. So we have to address romance scams. Like if there’s anything I do this year, I really want to make sure that we are helping people with romance scams.

[00:22:27] Evan Francen: Oh, when I and one of the things that, you know, that’s so cool about you and cool about your organization is, um, we have this shared heart, right? I mean we hate seeing people getting taken advantage of. I hate it.

[00:22:42] Kristin Judge: That’s why we do what we do. I mean, that’s what keeps us going and our whole team, I was the only person on the team July 1, 2018 and we now have 30 people and every one of them is really passionate. I mean you met Joan, they’re just so passionate about making things work and they work way harder than they’re paid for and way more hours and they’re supposed to, but they’re all really dedicated and it shows that’s why we’ve been able to grow so quickly.

[00:23:07] Evan Francen: Good for you. I love it. I love it. I love the fact that we can, you know, I mean, I know we’re exploring, you know, and time, there’s all these things, you know, uh, in working together, we’re trying to quantify information security and use it as an education tool for people. But ideally you prevent it, you know prevention is always better, right? So if you can become not so

[00:23:35] Kristin Judge: effective. I

[00:23:36] Evan Francen: know, I know right? We’ve got so

[00:23:38] Kristin Judge: well, you know it’s you know, Yeah, I just think we have to find another way.

[00:23:45] Evan Francen: Yeah. When the sad thing is too, I mean information security, so financial stuff, privacy and safety can’t be separated anymore.

[00:23:54] Kristin Judge: Right? Oh no, no, I mean it’s all a risk management issue and what we find, I have a corny phrase after there’s been a breach, it’s the best time to teach. And you know, I think that’s why when people come to our site we want them to report recover but then reinforce their security before they leave because I feel like Talk to someone about putting on two factor authentication on their account before they’ve lost $500. I don’t want to take the time or whatever, but tell them right after they’ve been breached, oh my gosh, how do I get that on my phone, you know, help me get that on there please. You know? So I think once they benefit from the first time, so we focus on not prevention but preventing re victimization. So if we can get people to come to us one time, yep they get scammed one time but then they don’t get scammed again we could, we could decrease crime exponentially. I think that’s the best time to capture people and get them to actually change their security posture. That’s my theory.

[00:24:56] Evan Francen: No that’s a good theory. I actually put the quote in in our chat, I’m going to quote that on twitter, I’m

[00:25:04] Kristin Judge: going to make t shirts.

[00:25:05] Evan Francen: Yeah

[00:25:06] Kristin Judge: I’ll take one.

[00:25:08] Evan Francen: Please don’t wear it. Probably I’ve been wearing mental health hackers shirts a lot. That’s a whole other thing. But anyway back to your perspective on security stuff and things.

[00:25:22] Brad Nigh: So it’s really interesting to hear. I mean it reinforces what we’ve been preaching is, you know what their security at home and their behaviors at home translate to work. And it’s I mean what you’re saying is exactly what we see.

[00:25:38] Kristin Judge: Yeah but every time I teach um cybersecurity for either consumers or small businesses. You know when I did stuff live in person I have T. V. Stations there and they’d say well today’s event was about small businesses, what advice would you give to consumers? I say the same thing, it’s like good cyber hygiene is good cyber hygiene. There’s no different messaging. Just just he used two factor authentication for going to say like you know don’t click on stuff, you’re not supposed to slow down. Um there’s just you know it’s the same thing and but what I I’ve really come to terms with after being in education and awareness for over 10 years is we can’t just tell people we have to actually do it for them and with them I have a really good friend who runs a $50 million dollar budget and he said to me, can you just put two factor on my email for me? Like you run this incredible organization with $50 million budget and you want me to add to factor to your email and that was a lightbulb day for me. So I realized our seniors are definitely not going to do it on their own. So we’re starting a program called securing our seniors where we’re going to help encourage college age and high school age, maybe even middle school kids to go sit down with someone in their life and actually sit them through and add to factor, change their privacy settings. I pick three or four things that the top experts like you guys will say just do these four things and you’re going to really increase their security. So we’re hoping to get that program off the ground and Q for this year.

[00:27:07] Brad Nigh: There’s some volunteer for squares the cyber safe online. Yeah. And they had some really good stuff for like seniors and

[00:27:19] Kristin Judge: one of our partners, but you’ve got, you can’t just put the video up to have someone sit down with them. And then when I figured to, if their grandson who’s in college is willing to sit down for half an hour with them and do this. Guess what if something fishy comes along? They’re probably going to call or text that grandson and say, hey honey, what do you think of this? You think this is real? Because now they’ve got this confident that they can go to and, and maybe they won’t send something, um, to a stranger until they check in and then we built that relationship.

[00:27:48] Brad Nigh: Yeah. No. Yeah, no, I agree. I think that’s awesome because I was gonna say one of the biggest feedbacks I get when I do, I do more like the school for the parents and stuff. Is is there something out there for us? How do we, how do I reset my router password from default? I don’t know. And so to hear you guys are doing that, I mean there’s definitely a huge need for

[00:28:09] Kristin Judge: that. We don’t understand because we live in this space that if someone sees even a step by step guide on how to reset your router default, they’re just like, oh, I don’t know if I can do that. I’m not a computer person. You

[00:28:21] Brad Nigh: break it.

[00:28:22] Kristin Judge: Yeah. Yeah. They just, people are so intimidated, really, really bright people if they are not in this industry are very intimidated. That is the bottom line. And so we have to make it in a way that they can’t, they can’t miss, you know,

[00:28:38] Evan Francen: right? Yeah, that’s very cool. So tell me about or tell us about kind of how you got here. So you started as the county commissioner and was, and then where did you go from there.

[00:28:53] Kristin Judge: So I was the first elected person to be put on the center and the securities Executive committee because I was doing so much outreach to state and local government and that’s part of the M. S. I sack. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the M. S. I sack multi state, I sack, they’re funded by DHS to handle S LTT state local tribal territorial cyber threats. And when I was on that executive committee after their annual meeting and will pell grin, who’s amazing. And was the founder of CsX said, you know, we really need to expand our reach to local governments. And I said, well, I want to do that for you. I’m already doing it anyway. You should pay me to do that. And he’s like, great come to Albany, let’s talk in two weeks. I said, but wait, I’m running for state representative. I’ve gotten all my, you know, endorsements. I’ve gotten the party to agree that they were going to support me and everything. But I thought, okay, I could run for office and be just massacred online and nasty, uh, stuff or I could go take a job that I don’t have to run for and actually make more money. And so I left my elected position and went worked for will MSC sack and grew their local see so membership and so state and local systems are sort of the people. I love the most.

[00:30:09] Evan Francen: That’s cool, very cool. So in your opinion, do you think we have a shortage of women in our industry,

[00:30:17] Kristin Judge: you know, I work with a lot of women um, and I started a women’s group in michigan, we have 58 people. Um, so far there are a lot of women out there, but they still, I still hear that some of them don’t see a woman all day, you know, if they are still so like in a medical company or an insurance company, I say I literally don’t see a woman all day. Um one of the women we just hired, she was a federal agency and she was the only woman in her department, so we probably don’t have enough. But sometimes you know, I’ve been to a hacker conference Um there were 42 women there at about 1500 people and I have to say there was a lot of tension in the room and a lot of nasty stairs in a, in a mean way and one of the women got up to speak as one of the amazing speakers. She was military. She’s been at cyber command center. She was so amazing and the way the men treated her from the audience was so disgusting. I should have stood up and said shame on all of you, but I didn’t. Um, so I felt what it feels like to be a woman going into the info sec part. I’ve stepped into it enough to feel that tension and how unwelcoming it is. So we don’t have enough, but we have to have a critical mass so that they can support each other. So women’s groups like executive women’s forum among the executive committee there, those are so critical, women’s cyber jiu jitsu, these groups are forming, but it’s tough to get in there and feel comfortable and appreciated and respected. Unfortunately, still you

[00:31:58] Brad Nigh: think that’s maybe why were we don’t see it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that goes back to what victoria said last week of foreign lorry where you at guys tend to be like, I’m not sure, but let’s just do it and women are more introspective and only do it when they are like really certain and that kind of

[00:32:20] Kristin Judge: Yeah, because if you tip your, if you put your toes in like you get burned a little bit and you’ve got to be really strong and really want to do it to push up against that. I mean, why would you go into something where there’s a push back? I just got to get rid of that push back and that’s and I love men, I’m married to one for almost 30 years, but we need them to be a part of the solution. It can’t just be the women, like they’ve got to really work to not treat us differently because we’re women, but just treat us the same and I’m not some big feminist and you know, like this is just basic respect human to human. Um, you know, I don’t and I don’t want men to be thinking, oh, I had to be so careful for women’s in the room. No, just just be normal. You know, that’s the thing. Just be yourself and just the way, you know, you to talk to each other, talk to your colleague, who’s a woman, I’m sure in your company you’ve got a great culture. Um, and that’s what I’m trying to build here at CSN were almost all women, I think we only have three men. So, um, but we’re trying to build a culture where everybody’s voice is heard, everybody’s voice is important. And if you just stick with everybody’s voice is important regardless of what you look like. Feel like who you sleep with at night, Like whatever, you know, everybody’s voices has value. And if we start there and we try and get the men to adopt that way of thinking, I think we can encourage more women to come in and stay in.

[00:33:43] Evan Francen: Well, I think sometimes men, you know that I’ve seen in instances like what you described in that conference, lot of that comes from insecurity, you know, a lot of them, a lot of it comes from feeling threatened. So

[00:33:57] Kristin Judge: that’s what I felt. It felt like it felt that way. Yeah, like I feel it

[00:34:02] Evan Francen: I don’t feel confident enough in myself in my skills and what I bring to the industry or what I bring to my company that if I see somebody else come who’s, you know, who might be a threat to that. Yeah, I’ll put them down rather than welcome them with open arms. Right? So I think a lot of those men who are, you know, jerks, yeah. You know, they need to work on their self esteem. Maybe get better, maybe get better at your

[00:34:29] Kristin Judge: job or just appreciate how good you already are and how everybody in this industry is valuable because we need so many people, you know, with the men are going to fail. If we don’t have enough bodies, we just need bodies. So if it’s women or monkeys or robots that can do it, let’s get them in here because we need bodies. You know, there’s a, there’s an opening for um intelligent, thoughtful people to get into the industry.

[00:34:56] Evan Francen: There’s got to be a study that’s been done somewhere that if you put, You know, 5, 10 like individuals meaning similar backgrounds, you know, similar race, similar everything in a room to solve a complex problem, write something that’s going to require, I don’t know, real creative solution and then you take a diverse group with different perspectives where people are different. They’ve got, you know, some from the inner city, some from rural, you know, some from the suburbs, some white, some black, some asian, some women, some men, some, uh, I don’t know all the names that they have for people now, you know that are fit between the men and the women, but, But you bring those people and do the same kind of thing. I bet you I bet you nine times out of 10 you come up with a much better solution out of that diverse group.

[00:35:48] Kristin Judge: There is a study, there’s actually quite a few of them and that’s why California has now mandating that you at least have to women or 5% women on your board of directors. They did it with corporate culture, I think. And corporate boards of directors that, um, there was, the company’s moved forward more the more diverse their board was.

[00:36:08] Evan Francen: Yeah. See that’s the reason why I want diversity is you, it’s better for your business. It’s better for everybody.

[00:36:15] Kristin Judge: I don’t know all the answers and that I surround people, surround myself with just people like me. Then we’re just gonna have one train of thought and then we’re gonna get nowhere.

[00:36:22] Evan Francen: Yeah, it’s the same. Seems stupid, repetitive. Dry crab week after week. It’s like, my God. Yeah.

[00:36:30] Kristin Judge: Well we’d be bored so

[00:36:32] Brad Nigh: I just don’t, it’s so bizarre to me that people don’t want other inputs, right? Like how are you going to grow and become better if you’re about listening and open and receptive to what other people have to say. Like Kevin said, Yeah, we know everybody else. They have different experiences why, why are you doing it that way? Help me understand that. Oh,

[00:36:56] Evan Francen: and I think maybe for some of the men who struggle with this insecurity thing. Just try it once. Just try being welcoming. Because what you’ll find is you will be elevated as well. You’ll be a better person, you’ll be better at security, you’ll be better professionally, you

[00:37:13] Kristin Judge: know, And we need more people like you to show them the way and and continue to be vocal about it because if you can show, look, we’ve got the successful business and look at the leadership here. This is what we do and it works. It’s okay because you said they’re intimidated, they’re scared, sort like pull them over and say, look, look, we’re doing it, you know, it’s okay. Um and look how successful were being and it doesn’t hurt. It actually is fun. You know, work should be fun. It works, not fun. And you’re depressed and sad every day at work, then goodness! I couldn’t do it. That’s for sure. Unfortunately,

[00:37:43] Evan Francen: I have a lot less patients with men than I do with women. So I probably bashed them over the head with

[00:37:48] Kristin Judge: something.

[00:37:51] Brad Nigh: Think about it to I report to a woman, right? Renee is my boss to I report to and I know a lot of men would have to be like, no, and I’ll tell you the last how long she’s been here? A year and a

[00:38:04] Evan Francen: half, two years, I think almost two years.

[00:38:07] Kristin Judge: You know what I find is the special, The special sauce on that one is the men on our team. They are so incredibly uh talented one is a retired FBI unit chief. He used to brief the pentagon for goodness sakes and he answers to me technically, um but he doesn’t bring an ego to the room. Like the men on our team, they don’t walk in with their ego first, they walk in and say how can we help, what can we do? They believe in service. And so, and then it’s on me to make sure that they feel like they’re not underneath me. For some reason we do servant leadership. So I work for them. I’m there to help them be as successful as they possibly can and that really works and if they have a good idea, I want to hear it. If they think I’m doing something stupid, I want them to tell me, you know, I’ve surrounded myself with really, really bright people that have way more experience than me, that’s the only reason we’re doing well. So you can’t have the boss act like a boss. You know, that just, that just is a nonstarter to me, no one’s in charge of anybody else, you know?

[00:39:08] Brad Nigh: Yeah, and then, well he sounds just like Renee which is great but uh yeah, I was a mistake. There isn’t, it isn’t like it’s who I report to structurally. It’s not, I’ve grown, I’ll be honest. Like I’ve probably been more from a business perspective the last two years under her than I had under male bosses for 20 years. You know

[00:39:32] Evan Francen: when you look at her resume, there’s no way in hell we should have somebody with that skill set here. I mean it’s like she’s too far exceeds anything that we deserve here, She’s amazing.

[00:39:43] Brad Nigh: Mm She

[00:39:45] Kristin Judge: loves the culture, I bet she feels respected and the part of the team she can lead and that’s it’s really important. People don’t pay much enough attention to culture. I think we’re getting better at it. Like there’s been you know, more things on linkedin about, people don’t leave their job, they leave their boss, you know,

[00:40:05] Brad Nigh: very true.

[00:40:06] Evan Francen: So you’ve seen probably seen a lot of people come and go in this industry and and probably a lot of women too, what advice do you have for a woman who is exploring opportunities? May be getting in this industry

[00:40:20] Kristin Judge: mentorship. Um you know, I try and mentor people. The executive women’s forum has mentorship, cyber jiu jitsu like find a group of people that are not, you know, men bashing by any means but are women empowering, you know, you can get into a woman’s group that’s all about what did the mean people do at work to me today, that’s not gonna help anybody, but if you get to a woman empowerment that they can be there for you. Maybe after five o’clock for a zoom happy hour if you had a hard day and need to be encouraged to keep going but connect with other women and do it early in your career. You know, the Executive Women’s Forum has this great lift program for millennials and they come in, they get attached to Cisco’s and Ceos of big companies and they just bring them right along and lift them up and and give them the tools they need. So, you know, don’t give up because we need people and plus it’s a really lucrative, cool job to have. I mean, we want to get rid of this pay gap with women to we’ll get them into cyber and they should be making a lot of money. So, um and there’s jobs to fill, but you have to have that support system I think is really important.

[00:41:30] Evan Francen: Do you think there’ll be any value in having immense support system for women?

[00:41:35] Kristin Judge: Yeah, I do. Um, and I think that they do have champions in executive Women’s forum that our men um, but within organizations, I think there should be a joint group that is supporting new people in general, don’t just make it about women. You know, at some, at some point we’re not going to call cyber crime cyber crime, it’s just gonna be crying because it’s all connected to the cyber. It’s unloaded. Let’s stop actually, even in the workplace calling them out, this is the women of our work group. I know just have a new person group, anybody who comes in new, they feel supported when someone joins our group, I have them have a sit down with almost everybody on the team. I don’t care for men, women, whatever they should become a part of our family and you know, have a new person like orientation and then mentorship have them. I said when some one joined, I’m like, okay river is going to be your go to or Andy is going to be your go to when you, when you first join us. If you have any question, go right to them first and they’ll help you figure it out and have them connect with somebody. It’s sort of their person on the inside, but I don’t think you have to even call it out as women versus men. You know, let’s just make it new people coming to our organization, let’s treat them all the same and make them feel welcome.

[00:42:50] Evan Francen: Yeah, yeah. And respect those perspectives, man. I mean, I have saw brad you and I, you know, we’ve worked together for a while now, how many times we really just struggled with a really, really challenging problem that we need to solve, right? And so you draw on all these experiences that you’ve got from different people that brought different. I mean, even at home, right? Well if it wasn’t my wife, I live in a cardboard

[00:43:18] Kristin Judge: box,

[00:43:19] Evan Francen: you know what I mean? There’s these perspectives that she brings. Its like, yeah, dang, I didn’t think of that

[00:43:26] Kristin Judge: you bring great perspectives to and if you’re willing to listen to each other together, like you said, when you have that diversity of thought, you’re going to finally come up with something really good because no one person is always right, right? No one perspective is always right. So when you come together and I love our meetings because our internal team meetings will really get down to. No, I totally disagree with you. This does not work. That doesn’t work. And then at the end after we had a chance to really disagree, like, oh, you know what we can all see like if we just go that way and we totally shifted and changed ideas. We totally through some work we’ve done for six months under the bus a week ago and like, okay, guess what? We got a shift and it’s just the nature of the work we do right now, it’s always moving. So we have to be able to shift and you can’t have your ego in it. You can’t own it. You know, that’s what women bring to the table to is we don’t really bring the ego as much to the table.

[00:44:18] Brad Nigh: What’s so great is the kind of, the consulting team is probably 40% women I have are secure and we’ll have these big, you know, hey, what are we doing? And you know, they, they brought answers that I’ve been from angles that I never would have even considered and, but what’s so great at the end of the day, even if we’re disagreeing, we all are trying to the same thing. We all want the same goal. But if you can, if you have like 10 paths coming into that one goal versus two, you’re gonna, how can you not have a better, better solution?

[00:44:58] Evan Francen: Well, another thing for us when we started, you know, we had to be intentional. It wasn’t just gonna happen, right? We weren’t just, there wasn’t just going to be a a female executive, just land in our, in our board meeting. Right? We have to be intentional. We actually went when we went and hired Renee, we specifically, we were four white men looking at each other and like this is so dry, we need to shake this up. So we specifically said, well let’s go, let’s go recruit a female and I don’t know if that’s legal or whatever, but that’s what we did. Then Renee like Holy

[00:45:37] Kristin Judge: you have to make, you have to make those conscious efforts to have a diverse workforce. That’s legal. It’s not legal to say I’m going to go higher. Anybody who’s not a woman, a woman that that’s illegal Probably, but consciously saying I want a diverse workforce. I’m going to look at these candidates and I’m going to go out and try and find someone that looks different than me. That’s what we have to do. We have to be intentional, but I love that word. Yeah, it has to be intentional.

[00:46:02] Evan Francen: Yeah. So I think anybody who’s out there hiring, looking for good security folks, look at your team, look at the diversity of your team, if they’re all the same, the same backgrounds, it’s probably time to shake things

[00:46:13] Kristin Judge: up and go on linkedin. We’ve been using linkedin for recruiting. It’s cost effective and you can see all of other background and you know, it’s been a really great tool for us.

[00:46:25] Brad Nigh: That’s a really good you say, what in the last kind of question is, is what can we do better about recruiting more women into the industry? You know?

[00:46:36] Kristin Judge: Well there there, I would say the best way to get more women to be interested in. It is to have some more women be successful. So get the ones who are already there that are just getting started, just finished. You know, go to the universities, recruit them, get him on his interns and then keep them. That’s what we’ve done a lot here. Um, and then they’ll start talking to their friends, they’ll start talking to their little sisters and their cousins. You know, let’s get the ones that are here successful first before we keep trying to bring a bunch in that are going to come into a system that’s not working for them. So let’s make the system were in work really well and I think it’ll just happen naturally, Um you know, people are going to be drawn to it cause they’re gonna hear all these amazing stories of the women and but what you’re doing is so fantastic highlighting the women that really loved their jobs and her passion and having a great time. Yeah, we’ve all had some bad experiences, but I bet Renee loves her job, 99% of the time, you know? Um and I love my job, 99% of the time. Yeah, I had a bad thing at a hacker conference. I just don’t go to those as much anymore. Um but you know, you find your place and let’s just make sure the women that are in the industry are having such a great time that they’re going to go out and tell their friends to come in.

[00:47:46] Evan Francen: Yeah, I think it’s wonderful, but I love it, focus on the things that are working.

[00:47:51] Brad Nigh: Yeah.

[00:47:53] Kristin Judge: And just try and be better and kinder every day. That’s not hard,

[00:47:57] Evan Francen: Our whole world could use that. Yeah,

[00:48:00] Kristin Judge: Yeah. Just be kind. That’s one of my friends, my best friend’s favorite sayings is just be kind, no, let’s just life’s too short and there’s enough negative out there, just be kind to each other

[00:48:13] Evan Francen: when I love how you mentioned, you know, the servant leadership now, that’s also something to be intentional. Sometimes it doesn’t come natural right naturally? Sometimes we’re selfish people and yeah, what’s best for me, but you realize that when you’re a good servant leader, that the things that you do that are best for other people end up being what’s best for you?

[00:48:34] Kristin Judge: Oh my gosh, it is so circle, right? It is so fulfilling to me to know when I hear from one of our teammates, you know, we also try and hire military spouses and give them flexible work hours, three o’clock, they’re done. Their husbands are God knows, we’re helping us stay safe and they’ve got three kids to take to taekwondo and everything else like You’re done at 3:00, put it on your calendar, like you are out of the office and you know, when I hear back from them how they’ve never had an experience where they could actually feel like they are meeting their, their goals in their work life and their home life. You know, it’s never perfect but that they have a work atmosphere that allows them to be a parent, uh, a military spouse and professional. It’s, you know, that kind of stuff. I did not realize how rewarding that would be. It really feels good. That’s my favorite part of the job.

[00:49:25] Evan Francen: That’s cool.

[00:49:26] Brad Nigh: Yeah, great.

[00:49:30] Kristin Judge: No, we’re good. We’re good. Well, we could run the world, right? Let’s do it

[00:49:35] Evan Francen: well. You know, we control our areas of influence, right? As we control our areas of influence, they overlap with other areas of influence and yeah, you can change the world, you know, I mean, I believe that

[00:49:47] Kristin Judge: Yeah, time. I’ve got 30 people in our office that I think actually really enjoy what they’re doing. So they go out and spread kindness at the end of the day because they’re not pulling their hair out and hate their life, you know? So hopefully that’s multiplying across the ecosystem.

[00:50:02] Evan Francen: Yeah. Follow

[00:50:03] Brad Nigh: Oh and I can tell you it’s in my experience here. Like that will attract the right people, right? The team we have are scared because Evan preaches that from the top. You don’t and then you want to call, you want to see what we have are hiring policy.

[00:50:22] Evan Francen: Yeah. You know, I know that people get offended, you know, cancel culture.

[00:50:25] Brad Nigh: Crazy. I know you like saying that though.

[00:50:28] Evan Francen: Yeah. But I usually get up and uh when we do our quarterly meetings from people, you know, you look across the room and you’re like, we don’t, we do not have a single dickhead here. Yeah. It’s Yeah.

[00:50:42] Kristin Judge: Yeah. Anybody who comes in with an ego and wants to be the boss of, someone wants to be in charge of something. They haven’t stayed. It just didn’t work. You know, and and that’s it. You can’t be a jerk, You gotta come in being a good person who just wants to help others and and be a part of servant leadership. We make them read a book and agree that they are going to be a part of a servant leadership organization. So they know what this means. This means. You’re not the boss of anybody, regardless of how many people you supervise and you’ve got to be okay with that or you’re not going to fit.

[00:51:14] Evan Francen: Yeah, awesome.

[00:51:16] Brad Nigh: So yeah, so great to hear. I’m sure we’re just gonna hear more great things from you here for the next couple of years.

[00:51:24] Kristin Judge: What’s so fun to meet kindred spirits like Evan said that people that have the same passion that we do. Like I said, I would not get up this early in the morning on the monday after a holiday for just anybody, but I knew what kind of person you were. So I was honored to be on your show.

[00:51:38] Evan Francen: Thank you very much. When we have a saying to its information, security is not about information or security as much as it is about people, it’s always about people and it’s about people for at least two reasons. One is people suffer. Yeah, we do things incorrectly or some things go bad and two people out of the biggest risk, right? So oftentimes they’re their own worst enemy. And so the work that you guys are doing, We supported 100%. I’m excited to see where the future brings us together because we’re both trying to help people

[00:52:12] Kristin Judge: that people need to be the solution to and they can be. And so you just have to give them the tools and that’s what we’re trying to do is give them the tools to be the solution and I think we’re making a lot of progress, but we can’t do it without partners like you and our federal, state and local government partners. And it really isn’t all hands on deck and everyone’s come to no one that we’ve asked to partner with has said no. So it’s pretty good.

[00:52:36] Evan Francen: That’s awesome. You

[00:52:38] Brad Nigh: know, I think I always should have known or I should know about this because I’m just thinking back and we’ve had, uh, several schools that school districts that we work with and have had teachers fall for the gift card scam and out hundreds of a couple $1000 and I’ve got family of teachers and they don’t have a lot of extra cash laying

[00:53:02] Kristin Judge: around. We’ll get them to our websites, broad support dot org and scam spotter dot org. We made those for people just like that. But don’t just say, hey, go to this website, sit down with them and go to the website.

[00:53:13] Brad Nigh: Yeah. And, and the other people we have like partnerships with and ongoing. So yeah, that’s, that’s great to hear. I’m gonna definitely uh, killer entire VC so team about this and,

[00:53:25] Kristin Judge: and we can send them posters to the schools that they want to, when people are actually in school we can, you know, whatever they need. Well, I just want to get the word out.

[00:53:33] Evan Francen: It’s never one and done either, Right we’re trying to form good habits and let’s take time.

[00:53:38] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah. So uh christian thank you. Is there anything else at all you wanted to share before we move on? Two news?

[00:53:47] Kristin Judge: This has been great thank you.

[00:53:49] Brad Nigh: All right so uh feel free to stick around in china. We just I just have three. Um there’s yeah there’s so much going on. But uh three I picked were uh it’s first one security analyst disproportionate in their investigation of malware from info security magazine. And I thought this was interesting. Uh it makes sense to from what we see from an I. R. Perspective but basically diversity said that Backdoors 24% and droppers 23% are among the most Developly sent free requests to the threat intelligence portal. They only make up 7% or 3% of malicious files blocked by the in point products respectively. So you’re when you look at that it’s like that’s kind of weird why. And it’s the end result. Right? Those are typically what you find on after a breach that the endpoint isn’t necessarily finding. Um But I thought that was kind of interesting to see uh and read about their from a little bit more of a technical perspective. Uh and it does align with what we see on in the I. R. S. Is you find a lot of those trojans and droppers that aren’t being found by in point protection we drop them in there to hybrid analysis or wherever. Yeah 3 3 out of 72 anti viruses find this.

[00:55:18] Evan Francen: Well I mean think about it if you were this is a business right? And if I was if I was in business for attacking other people, why wouldn’t I test against your protections before I launch?

[00:55:29] Brad Nigh: That’s another really good point.

[00:55:31] Kristin Judge: You have to keep changing because and that’s why the security needs to keep changing and they need to know what’s actually happening out in the wild so they can morph with the criminals. Yeah.

[00:55:41] Evan Francen: And the one thing that all of this comes back to and points to one place as really the sources. It’s always the people you know and so all these things it’s like doctors, they treat symptoms, they put band aids and bandages and casts on things and give you flu medicine. But The end of the day it’s the person right? If you want the cure and you’re never gonna get 100% cure right? I mean you talk you talked about it. Kristin its its risk management not risk elimination.

[00:56:13] Brad Nigh: Uh Yeah. Yeah. Uh Second one was the retrieval are evil ransomware gang ads auction feature for stolen data. So not not great if you’ve gotten their malware ransom by them because now they’re gonna just auction off your stuff anyway.

[00:56:39] Kristin Judge: But they’re just getting more creative. They used to just sell it flat out right now they’re doing Ebay basically

[00:56:45] Brad Nigh: they’re on Ebay. Yeah, yeah. They said um including US food distributor accounts and documents with the starting price of 100,000 U. S. Law firm with 50 gig of data including confidential information With a starting price of $30,000 for 50 gig of data. uh an intellectual property law firm, 1.2 terabytes of data including quote all internal documentation, Correspondents, patent agreements in client confidential information with a starting price of $1 million.

[00:57:18] Kristin Judge: Okay, so this is where we do have to mandate some kind of security for groups like lawyers who have all this information. There has to be some minimum security standards that they have to follow. That kind of stuff. Just gets me

[00:57:32] Brad Nigh: well and yeah, we need to think about it. You know, you’ve got now you got really manufacturing is gonna, has the 871 in the new C. M. M. C. That are coming out that they’re going to have to fall under and you’ve got finance and health care, legal. There’s there’s not really nothing other than maybe some state privacy

[00:57:52] Kristin Judge: laws, lawyers, accountants think realtors. I do a lot of training of real real estate agents. Title agents. Like they have to have some requirements and I actually did a a lesson or a class two bank um, regulators and they said you should make the banks themselves for the regulars. They said you should regulate us more, it was the financial investment, People regulate us more because this is Wild west out here. They were actually asking for regulation because they know that they’ve got their pants down.

[00:58:25] Brad Nigh: We’ve done several hours for law firms where it’s like one had, you know, LDA unencrypted open to the internet. So the entire active director is just open and like if there’s some sort of regulation at least then they can maybe force the issue. But lawyers, they don’t like having policies as well. I’d rather not have it written down so I can argue my way out of it. That’s not how it works in the real world. May be kept in court, but I

[00:58:56] Kristin Judge: can’t do billable hours for the time they put into security,

[00:59:00] Brad Nigh: right? Yeah, but if you’re if you’re all your documents are gone, guess what? I’m not going to go well

[00:59:06] Kristin Judge: For you. one heck of a lawsuit

[00:59:07] Brad Nigh: coming drives me crazy. I’m with you. Yeah, so last one was indiana positive. No. Record number of in enrolled in online in CSC cyber first courses. So I thought that was really kind of uplifting. And then hearing your background as a teacher and what you’re doing like really kind of ties in nicely with this. I got lucky on that one. Um But yeah, record number of teenagers enrolled in the en CSC cyber first summer courses this year which are being held online for the first time. Uh what teenagers from 14 to 17 to develop digital and problem solving skills. And uh 1700 accepted this year as uh increase of 600 over last year. Someone from 1100 to 1700, which is fantastic. And I mean that should just needs to keep growing right. Some. Uh huh.

[01:00:13] Evan Francen: Well, who’s the editor for enforcing?

[01:00:19] Brad Nigh: Yeah, we won’t talk about that. Enroll with one L

[01:00:24] Evan Francen: in the title.

[01:00:25] Brad Nigh: Yeah,

[01:00:27] Kristin Judge: I see so many typos. I see so many typos and articles nowadays. It’s just I was an english teacher too. So it drives me

[01:00:35] Evan Francen: crazy. Well, it’s good growth. I mean 600 and 1700 we saw, what were we last year? The CSS

[01:00:45] Brad Nigh: Were right, 505 30

[01:00:48] Evan Francen: Two went from 514 44. Well, it’s good it’s good to see that everywhere you’re starting to see, you know, an increased interest in insecurity. Certainly our younger generation because the younger generation, uh yes, they’re not getting it at home, right? Because that generation, the generation that we’re in, we’re the generation that remembers what it was like to use the rotary phones. You remember what it was like to put diets and and not carry devices all the time and we went from there to where we’re at now we’re not equipped well to teach the next generation who didn’t who grows up with it all the

[01:01:29] Kristin Judge: time.

[01:01:30] Brad Nigh: A digital native and digital immigrant.

[01:01:34] Kristin Judge: Yeah. Well, you know the cyber patriot program from the Air Force has grown exponentially thanks to my friend Tamara shoemaker in michigan cyber patriot is fantastic. It’s a national competition and it’s, it’s all offense. Excuse me. It’s all defense. It’s all defense, which is great. Yeah, shoemaker Tamara shoemaker. She’s amazing. She is amazing.

[01:02:02] Evan Francen: Would she be a good

[01:02:03] Kristin Judge: guest? Oh, she’d be a phenomenal guest. She runs the, um, the Detroit mercy information assurance program and sissy, which is the, I don’t know what it’s called, but it’s for the National Centers for Excellence. Um, you know, some of the universities are National Centers for Excellence through NSA and she runs their organization, their association of all those. She’s dynamo and she’s grown the cyber patriot program in michigan from 17 teams to I think 400 or something crazy. I don’t know where she’s at now. That couldn’t be more. She’s a rock star.

[01:02:38] Evan Francen: Yeah. Imagine the perspectives there too.

[01:02:40] Kristin Judge: Yeah, she’s done such a good job of workforce development singlehandedly. Just gotten all these kids signed up and it’s been amazing growing it through the state watching her.

[01:02:52] Brad Nigh: That’s super cool. Very cool. Alright, well that’s it for episode 87. Thank you Christine for joining us and making this fourth installment. Uh, the women in security Security is a great one. Yeah, absolutely. This is very, this is great. I learned a

[01:03:11] Kristin Judge: lot of fun. It’s so fun to talk to you guys and I hope to continue working with you will find a way somehow to continue complementing each other’s missions and together we really can make a difference. No one’s going to do it on their own. We’ve got to find those like minded people and just keep keep pushing.

[01:03:28] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Um, so we’ve got really great guests lined up for the next with five ish weeks. So

[01:03:36] Evan Francen: at least just grew by another week.

[01:03:38] Brad Nigh: I know it’s great though. I mean it’s like I’ve heard so much of the last four weeks doing this. It’s been really cool.

[01:03:47] Evan Francen: I have just one shot out. I want to shout out to joan Giovanni for all the work she did put us together. So I just want to call her out. There was, it was really nice that once she recognized the opportunity and then to help us put it together.

[01:04:04] Kristin Judge: Yeah, she’s amazing. Our whole team. They just go above and beyond. I’m so fortunate every day.

[01:04:09] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s cool.

[01:04:12] Brad Nigh: It sounds like you’re, you’re shot out there christians to your team. They’re

[01:04:15] Kristin Judge: absolutely, oh my gosh, they are so dedicated. You know, no one does this alone by any means. You only get to be the face, which is really fun out there, but it’s because of all their work every day and they are so talented. Cool.

[01:04:30] Brad Nigh: Uh, I don’t really have, don’t know. Last week was so quiet. I didn’t really talk to anybody, so really interact with people. Last week

[01:04:40] Kristin Judge: we started doing because of Covid, we started having a lunch a drop in lunch. Sometimes people don’t come? Sometimes five or six come, but every day at 12 o’clock, it’s on our calendar for our team. We can all get on a google hangout if you want to and just have lunch together, bring your sandwich Just to stay connected to some people still live by themselves or don’t see a lot of people all day. You know, they’re not even going out to the store they have in laws are taking care of. So we just, you know, it’s a small gesture, but people just jump in. We had a happy hour last week or two weeks ago on Friday and had about 15 of us show up. So just trying to make that conscious choice. Being intentional about staying connected.

[01:05:17] Brad Nigh: Yeah. A lot of people were out with the holidays and it was, I won’t lie. It was kind of nice to not have meetings all day long

[01:05:29] Kristin Judge: for less emails

[01:05:30] Brad Nigh: actually feel like I got something accomplished. It’s nice. Nice change. So

[01:05:35] Evan Francen: Bad. If you don’t, if you can’t think of any shout outs, it was July four, just give a shout out to America

[01:05:40] Brad Nigh: you know?

[01:05:41] Kristin Judge: Yeah,

[01:05:45] Brad Nigh: All right. Thank you to all our listeners. Keep questions and feedback coming citizens by email at insecurity of proton mail dot com. Your social type. You can socialize it with us on twitter. I’m @BradNigh and Evan is @EvanFrancen Kristin, is there any way particular way you’d like people to find you?

[01:06:04] Kristin Judge: Uh yeah. Just go to and we have an info, you can just send anything through the info box there and it gets right to me if you need to find me or whoever on our team that can help. So go to and send us a note.

[01:06:19] Brad Nigh: Uh, lastly be sure to follow security studio @StudioSecurity and @FRSecure for more goodies and that is it up to everybody next week.

[01:06:31] Kristin Judge: All right. Thanks again