Unsecurity Podcast

Recurring guest and friend of the program, Amy McLaughlin, returns to the UNSECURITY Podcast this week to discuss her new book titled “Learning Continuity Planning: A Handbook for Schools, Colleges & Universities.” With Evan and Brad in the process of co-authoring a book as well, the three of them discuss their new works in detail. They also touch on the 2021 CISSP Mentor Program (which registration just launched for) and news stories like DarkMarket Shutdown, Hackers Leak Stolen Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine Data, and Serious Windows 10 Flaw Could Corrupt Your Hard Drive If You Open a Folder.

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Podcast Transcription:

[00:00:22] Evan Francen: Hey there, thank you for tuning in to this episode of the insecurity podcast. This is episode 1 15 And the date is January 1920 21. I’m your host, Evan Francen and joining me as usual as my good friend and co worker uh read my Good Morning.

[00:00:43] Brad Nigh: Not fully awake yet, but you know, we’ll get there

[00:00:46] Evan Francen: right, right. We have a special guest with us this week. Uh Amy Mclaughlin. Amy

[00:00:53] Amy McLaughlin: Hi, good to be here. Thank you.

[00:00:56] Evan Francen: Yeah. Now this is the second time you’ve been on the show. Right?

[00:00:59] Amy McLaughlin: Yes, I was on last summer.

[00:01:02] Evan Francen: Yeah. The woman in security series. Yeah,

[00:01:05] Brad Nigh: sure. That wasn’t like five years ago. It feels like it’s nerve.

[00:01:10] Amy McLaughlin: I know it does kind of feel like it was in a lot the last year.

[00:01:16] Evan Francen: Yeah, that’s nuts. So the uh today we got a good show in store. We invited Amy out of the show because I wanted to talk about her new book. She released a new book I think just a couple of weeks ago and it’s on Amazon. I think it’s a pretty darn cool things we’re gonna talk about that and talk about uh why Amy wrote the book and um, you know, all that good stuff and then we’ll transition into talking about. I’m back from Cancun, which is good because the internet works here doesn’t work in Cancun uh my wife’s teeth got fixed. That’s good you know stuff like that. But we’ll talk about while I was down there. I wrote kind of the outline for the book that brad and I are working on. So we’ll talk about that too. We’ll talk about the C. I. S. Sp. Mentor program. This is 2021. It’s our 12th consecutive year of doing that. Good stuff. That’s pretty exciting. And then we’ll get to news. It does sound good.

[00:02:15] Brad Nigh: Sounds good. All

[00:02:17] Evan Francen: right catching up quick. How are you guys doing? You guys healthy happy Mostly a me it’s got to be what like 5:00 AM your time.

[00:02:26] Amy McLaughlin: It is 5:00 AM my time

[00:02:30] Brad Nigh: say I can’t complain about being tired. Yes.

[00:02:34] Evan Francen: No just enough. Listen I slept like I couldn’t sleep last night. So I got up at 11:30. been up since then. Oh no I uh Mhm. I was texting with chris roberts said I don’t know what time he wrote a blog or I wrote a Lincoln post late last night. What time was it? Yeah so we were texting it 1:45 AM this morning about worth what’s he worth. So you know he’s kind of an expensive resource and uh somebody was looking to engage him and uh you know comes come down to talking price and you know they didn’t like the price but so you know providing value to the company. I think if you can justify your value which all of us should do uh you know price the numbers shouldn’t really matter, right? I mean if I bring in a half million dollars with the revenue or whatever profit, if that’s You know the value I provide, well then paying me $300,400,000 is not out of the question. I would think. Yeah. Yeah. So we were talking about that this morning and then uh those numbers are all hypothetical right? I think Chris is like $15 an hour, something like that. I mean it’s cheap. Mhm. So maybe times

[00:04:17] Amy McLaughlin: a few zeros.

[00:04:18] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yes.

[00:04:21] Evan Francen: Yeah. But I could sense his frustration. You know that in that post. So if you go to linkedin and check out, you know his profile, you’ll see what he posted. You can sense the frustration just like. Yeah, I mean that’s what I cost, that’s what I’m worth. Yeah. Uh huh. So that’s uh that’s my Yeah me too. You know and so but you know part of your job I think is a as a resource, looking for work or whatever. And I don’t think chris is necessarily even looking for work. I think somebody was looking for him but you know it’s part of your deal right to get the job is you have to prove your value. Yes, same. If you’re going for a race right? You gotta prove your value and I’m sure there’s other factors that play in. I think one of the things we talked about last week. Amy on the daily insanity was pay disparities you know by gender right? You know we still have that issue. Women don’t get paid the same amount.

[00:05:27] Amy McLaughlin: It ends different, you know? And I think the other thing too when you’re in christmas situation, you know if you’re an independent contractor You know you might as well take 50% of that off of what you just made in terms of taxes and other expenses.

[00:05:43] Brad Nigh: Healthcare. Yeah

[00:05:47] Amy McLaughlin: because you’re not getting all the benefits of working for an employer who provides benefits and you’re not getting your taxes pre deducted. Yeah.

[00:05:55] Brad Nigh: Very true.

[00:05:57] Evan Francen: Yeah. Since it was a good discussion, I’d like to uh explore maybe chris coming and doing some things for us. You know what fr secure? Uh It could be a good resource you know? And so if you can demonstrate the value mm it’s a no brainer. Mhm. If you’re just going because your gut tells you or it feels right or you know? Oh my gosh chris roberts, it’s probably the wrong reason. Yeah so that was this morning you guys got sleep chris our bread? How much sleep did you get?

[00:06:33] Brad Nigh: Uh like six hours? But I didn’t sleep well. I don’t know. So why not? Yes. Yes. Sinuses allergies for whatever reason. Uh

[00:06:45] Evan Francen: huh. How about you Amy how much sleep did you get?

[00:06:49] Amy McLaughlin: Probably about seven solid. That’s impressive. Well, I know I was getting up early so I went to bed early.

[00:06:57] Brad Nigh: Uh huh wow.

[00:06:59] Evan Francen: Now do you have kids at home? Amy? Uh

[00:07:02] Amy McLaughlin: Just one. Yeah.

[00:07:04] Evan Francen: Okay. I do I do to just one brad. You got three right.

[00:07:08] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Although the uh the youngest Kindergartner is going back today so we’ll see how that goes and how long that lasts.

[00:07:19] Evan Francen: Yeah because kids always kids always eat into your sleep.

[00:07:23] Brad Nigh: Oh yeah. Yeah. And he was having a hit a rough night last night because right they’ve all been home since basically thanksgiving. So it’s been six weeks of three kids all the time. But yeah, he had a rough rough evening.

[00:07:41] Amy McLaughlin: I feel like in Covid I’m blessed my my my son is in college, you know, he’s pretty self sufficient and uh yeah for folks who are home with 2345 younger kids. Yeah.

[00:07:57] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah. My my daughters are really good. I couldn’t ask for them to be better. But mm it’s a It’s been a long six weeks.

[00:08:13] Amy McLaughlin: What?

[00:08:16] Evan Francen: Well especially when you consider, you know, you know the work we do right, sometimes we work long hours. Mhm. You know working long hours, trying to balance that between, you know family stuff. Uh you know, keeping my first house, her husband happy at the same time as you know, taking care of the house and taking care of the kids and you know. Yeah, to challenge. But they say it’s a blessing to do you. Do you agree with that?

[00:08:46] Brad Nigh: Uh huh. I think, you know, there there has been public no, there have been positive like seeing the bonding relationship between the kids. Uh and how well they’ve been doing together overall. They obviously have their moments of like home did you stop? But uh just how well they followed on and there I think that there will be some long term benefits for them having basically standard, you know, the last year, stuck with each other.

[00:09:23] Evan Francen: Yeah, stuck with each other. That’s us.

[00:09:27] Amy McLaughlin: It is a blessing though. I think so. I love I’ve enjoyed being at home. My cats love me being

[00:09:35] Evan Francen: my dog loves being there are new dogs. She sits on the, you know, I moved to one of her spare bedrooms because it’s warmer in here. The layout is nice. My desk, I’ve got three monitors And one of the benefits is when I get tired. So like I’ve been up since 1130 last night. I get tired. I can go take a 20 minute nap right behind me. The bad thing is my dog lays on that bed and if I’m not giving her attention, so sit right behind me in

[00:10:08] Brad Nigh: bark.

[00:10:12] Evan Francen: Yeah, she’s a crazy dog. All right. So amy. This book. It’s on amazon. It’s titled learning continuity planning a handbook for schools, colleges and universities. It’s out on paperback and Kindle. I’ve heard it to read it but I haven’t finished it. So I’m gonna be honest with that, but I love the concept I know you from, you know, I guess just interacting in the last year. So I’m sure you know what I continue to read will be awesome. Uh Did you start the book?

[00:10:52] Amy McLaughlin: Um I started at last spring I think in about april May and uh you know, I we hit covid and it was so apparent to me that most colleges, schools universities were not prepared for not just a pandemic, but just any kind of long term disaster. And so I thought, well I could use some some of those brain cells to put together a guidebook to help them through it.

[00:11:24] Evan Francen: Really cool. When when did you? Okay, so you’re talking Spring of 2020. The book was released January 2, 2021. So you turned around you turn the book around in a pretty, pretty quickly. Yeah,

[00:11:42] Amy McLaughlin: yeah. You know, one of the things about what is it? Mark Twain said, right, right. What? You know, um and You know, one of the things about being in this industry for 20 years now, as I know a bit about continuity planning and uh you know, so I basically took all of those years of knowledge, but focus them on the education environment. I think the education environment is really, really different in some ways and that you can’t really use the term business continuity planning with a lot of people in education because I don’t see it as a business, they see it as a mission. Um And so the guy, yeah yeah. Business continuity planning, what does that have to do with me? So refocusing on how you keep people learning through a disaster of any kind was really the emphasis there.

[00:12:38] Evan Francen: Cool. So it’s a handbook for schools, colleges and universities when you say schools, that’s like K. 12K. As well. Okay, awesome. So really the whole gamut of schools and based on your experience uh in the schools that you’ve worked with and you know, you’re in that industry. Uh Our schools generally not at this, I mean are they going to are they kind of in bad shape or on business continuity or learn, you know, continuity planning in general. You

[00:13:11] Amy McLaughlin: know, I would say that one of the, well they’re going to be a much better shape after this last year because they’ve had to learn how to plan on the fly. But I think that one of the challenges that they have is oftentimes there’s especially in K-12 there’s a lot of mandated things you have to do and that list is really long. So anything that isn’t mandated, like Business continuity planning doesn’t necessarily make the list. And then usually my experience with the K12 is that you have um fairly small teams in terms of the technology staff who are supporting large numbers of people. Right, so dry T. Director or C. I. O. Is usually also responsible for security community planning for basically everything. Um So part of my emphasis here as also to this is how you engage the rest of district. This is why this isn’t just a technology issue. In fact it really isn’t a technology issue. Technology is the enabler in most cases. Um with a few exceptions, there are times when your continuity planning is really based on the fact that for example your data center just blew apart, inhale on eruption which happened to a friend of mine who I referenced in the back. Um but by and large, you know, things like earthquakes and um pandemics and fires are gonna be disastrous with a broader reach and just technology and technology is what enables us to get through them. So

[00:14:48] Brad Nigh: mhm. Yeah, I would agree with that. But you said that I think the biggest challenge that I’ve seen with anything K through 12 or higher ed is lack of resources, lack of support in the technology department. I’ve seen Districts, K- 12 districts that have three staff for the entire district. How are you supposed to get anything done when if that’s in

[00:15:17] Amy McLaughlin: Yeah, exactly. And then you know, the reason the book is um it isn’t it isn’t like a big academic book is because I wanted to be very practical people in that situation. Don’t have time to read a big thick book. They just need to get to the meat of it. What do I need to do? And so I tried to keep it very sort of brief and actionable because yeah, if you have three people to support, you know, five or 6000 students and staff, you’re really gonna struggle. Um and you know, even at the higher end level, you know, there are a lot of smaller colleges and universities that also run with very small uh technology teams, uh and even that large universities, you might have a large team, but you also have a large overhead of technology they have to maintain.

[00:16:14] Brad Nigh: And let’s be honest, the challenge of students and it’s doing things that are pushing boundaries and challenging, right? Trying to manage and maintain that.

[00:16:25] Amy McLaughlin: Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, if you want to user test anything, students will find their way into every nook and cranny, um, whether you want them to or not. So yeah, and, and they’ll come up with the unique ways to use things that would never have occurred to you. And that’s not always a bad thing. It can just be um, you know, I don’t understand how to use this product, if you do any in house development, it can be actually a really good thing for developers to see that not everybody thinks the way they do, but yes, they are the ultimate uX testers, students,

[00:17:02] Brad Nigh: uh huh um you did Evan

[00:17:05] Evan Francen: Well, I’m sorry, that’s it’s 2020 playing over and over again. The one they’re a bunch of little hackers, right? I mean, there I think what makes a good hacker is that out of the box curiosity, And it seems like, you know, K- 12 students and maybe even higher ed students have that. It’s then, you know, do we make, let’s try to figure out how to make them ethical, little ethical hackers versus little unethical hackers?

[00:17:36] Amy McLaughlin: Well, I think that’s the key, right, is that you have um you don’t want to squash people’s creativity. What you want to do is help them use it for you. Um and they think that that, you know, we see a lot of that too, and how students have responded to covid, right, Different creative approaches to accessing the internet managing to get through what has been a really unusual time period. So, yeah, I think encouraging them in a way that is appropriate and ethical can help them become, you know, better citizens, better students. Um and use that creativity.

[00:18:20] Evan Francen: Now. Have you, have you written a book before? I mean, is this your first

[00:18:24] Amy McLaughlin: book? This is my first, my first book. I’ve started several before, but this is the first one I finished. Um and I have to say that it’s really important to have accountability. Uh, Ryan Cloutier, you know, RC cola um we wrote the forward for the books and was one of several of my cheerleaders, my spell steve and a friend of mine, Greg who has written several books on change management between the three of them, I felt like I had, I was accountable to getting this done,

[00:18:58] Evan Francen: That’s cool. What was your biggest, what would you say your biggest check, what would it be accountability or did you have times when you were just stuck and kind of frustrated or

[00:19:09] Amy McLaughlin: um I think the biggest challenge is actually getting started because I had it all and this is how I write in general, I tend to have it all in my head, But it’s different to have a 20 page paper in your head and have a whole book in your head because just the process of translating from your head to the paper is just so much bigger and so just actually like scheduling time and like I’m working on this right now, this is what I’m gonna accomplish today. That was, I think the biggest challenge. Yeah, it’s uh I’m also not a very structured person, like just needed, naturally, I put a lot of structure into my life because, you know, I kind of have to uh but building the structure to do, that was a challenge for me.

[00:19:57] Evan Francen: That’s cool. I’ve always, you know, when I went through the process myself, it, I strongly believe in, you know, even today that everybody’s got a book inside of them, you know, whether or not they want to get it out and put it in the paper, you know, that’s entirely up to them, but the process I found to be very, very rewarding. It was a good exercise and uh self discipline. It was a good exercise and uh introspection. I learned a lot of things about myself. Did you kind of have those, those moments through the process?

[00:20:36] Amy McLaughlin: Yeah, I think I learned a lot of uh, well you know, the, the tenacity component, right? The sticking to it and getting it done. Um You know, it’s really interesting, my dad has actually written about 10 books, in fact he’s got another one coming out just in a few weeks and despite the fact that I’ve like seen him writing books, I didn’t really have a concept of what it took to get it done until I did it myself. Uh, so that was really interesting to me is to like realize, oh, um, you know, and I think the other thing is to, I had to disconnect myself from the rules. Um, Ryan will tell you that I have a tendency to bleed red pen on everything people right? And when you’re actually writing to get content out, you just have to kind of set the grammar rules aside, get the information out and then come back and clean it up. Um because otherwise it just doesn’t the flow isn’t there at least that’s what I had to do and that’s really hard for me because I am, you know, very committed to grammar,

[00:21:45] Brad Nigh: right? Getting that stream of consciousness just the way I like to talk and say it with when we write articles and blood post, its like I’ll talk and just sit with the marketing person and it’s like the word vomit. It’s just go and just let it all come out and let them handle cleaning up.

[00:22:08] Amy McLaughlin: Yeah. And I think that was, you know, um, that was the challenge of course. And when I got it mostly done because I hadn’t paid that much attention to my grandma as I went, I sent it over to my editor, my dad and he was like ah red pen all over. So

[00:22:28] Evan Francen: that’s cool. Well I love the way the book is laid out to, it’s, it’s uh, like you said, I think it’s very, very actionable. It’s an easy read. Uh, you know, it starts with learning continuity planning, you know, where you and I like how you open up with making the case. Like for people who haven’t done it. I think you have different sides of the spectrum. You have people that have never done business continuity planning. They don’t see the value in it. Maybe they’re an approver, maybe they’re the school board or uh, you know, superintendent or something like that and then you’ve got the other side where, you know, you might be one of those three I. T. Folks that has to support an entire district and you’re trying to make the case like hey we gotta do something here and I think your book can be used for both of that, both of those scenarios, which is really cool.

[00:23:21] Amy McLaughlin: Um Yeah thank you. I you know I tried to make it really user friendly. Um I think you know one of the things I want to point out to is um I add a chapter that is probably unusual in business continuity planning which is on being human. And I know um Evan you’re really cognizant of mental health and and bread is too. And you know when you go through like any kind of business continuity process, when you actually have to implement it in a disaster, um you have to pay attention to people’s mental well being and their health and where they are because it’s really easy. I know for at least for myself And for a lot of my colleagues that will work 60, 70, 80, 90 hours. Um and we need to pay attention to our own mental health.

[00:24:07] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah. Show me an IT person that hasn’t gone through something where they worked 36 48 hours straight.

[00:24:15] Amy McLaughlin: Mhm. Right. And in a disaster scenario, you know, you could also be that person whose house has been destroyed by fire or who has family members who are ill or whatever it happens to be. Um And it’s really important that we recognize that for our team members and our colleagues and make sure that we take care of each other. So I added an entire chapter on strategies for dealing with trauma and re traumatization and um sort of the mental health components

[00:24:47] Evan Francen: and you have a background in that.

[00:24:49] Amy McLaughlin: I do, you know, I started my original career while some original career plan was to teach english, but then I went into marriage and family therapy and I spent some time as a therapist, not a lot of time because I decided that that just wasn’t like the right approach to life for me. But, you know, I I really value mental health and well being and I think it’s really important to pay attention to it, It’s an area that’s really suffered this last year for a lot of people, so

[00:25:21] Evan Francen: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. And it’s at home for me, you know, the mental health peace what hits home for me every day, right? I have my own struggles, you know, and I think uh being honest with yourself and some people don’t have the ability to even get there and I get it uh because, you know, I think some mental health things can also be used as a as a superpower. You know, a d d you know, if If you don’t if you’re not aware of it right, it can be probably very destructive, but if you can harness it, man, it’s pretty cool. I can have lists all over this place and have 50 projects all about 10% done. I might, I might get one of them, who knows?

[00:26:06] Amy McLaughlin: You know, that’s a good point. I just think it’s really um important to recognize that, you know, we all have, nobody is free of mental health challenges, right? Because some of the uh, there are things that are triggered by circumstance, anxiety, depression. I mean there’s just recognizing that when you’re working as part of a team in any kind of scenario, but especially in a disaster scenario, there’s other stuff going on for people besides the obvious. Um, because you just don’t know what people have experienced in the past or how that might resurface for them. So, so I think it’s important to recognize it. And I’ve read, you know, I’ve read a lot of BCP books, but very rarely does anybody talk about the people element, it’s usually about, you know, keeping money moving or whatever depending on your line of business.

[00:27:05] Evan Francen: And I think I love the fact that you added that.

[00:27:08] Amy McLaughlin: Well, especially in education because when you’re educated, you have to be present for your students and your students have their own stuff going on. So it’s really important to be aware of it.

[00:27:21] Brad Nigh: Yeah, it’s such a high stress situation that just anything could trigger. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I like that. Just having, just being aware of what the other people are going through and aware of them. So like that.

[00:27:42] Evan Francen: Yeah, I think we talked about teachers, you know, they have such a tough job as it is right bunch of kids that you need to deal with. You also have to answer to the administration. You also answer to parents. Parents can be a real pain in the butt and you know, a couple that with you. You know, your own marriage, your own kids, your own bills to pay and now you’ve got a disaster on your hand to that’s yeah, I’m glad you cover that. And the planet the book two is very logical. It’s easy to follow through. You know, you talk for, you know, building the case for it and then preparing to plan right? Who do I need to talk to? Who do I need to get involved. You go into the inventory which I’m a big fan of that because how can I possibly protect the things? I don’t know. I have. Yeah. Uh, and then go into the practical, you know, building the plan all the way through, testing, lessons learned. I mean it’s it’s a damn good book. You did a great job amy

[00:28:51] Amy McLaughlin: Well thank you. I try to just make it easy. Like you can check a list. You know, okay, next I’m gonna do this next. I’m going to do this and if each, it can be so overwhelming right to take on that kind of planning. So um, just each step by step and I think it’s really, you know, is so important to engage the people around you. This isn’t something you should do in a vacuum. Um but I also know that like you need to have some support in making the case. I once worked for somebody who um heavily criticized my was responsible for business continuity planning and they’re like, yeah, yeah, I don’t know why we spend all this time on this because these disasters are never going to happen. And um

[00:29:34] Evan Francen: Page 1 26, yeah,

[00:29:38] Amy McLaughlin: these disasters happen, right. And so, you know, uh I guess, you know, there’s an element of the book that was a response to that. If no, it’s really, really important to think about what could happen because quite frankly if you don’t you’re just banking on the odds of being in your favor.

[00:29:59] Brad Nigh: Mm Well, for the majority of the audience, in terms of the business side of it, you’re it’s like we’re talking about the normal people versus us, you’re trying to translate it pretty complex, detailed process into some into language that normal people that don’t think about this, understand and get

[00:30:26] Amy McLaughlin: yeah, that’s really the goal right, is to uh be that universal translator. I think that that’s the area where industry really struggles is because let’s face it, we all like nerd out, You know, you and I and Evan we can have a conversation that other people would be like, I don’t even know what you’re talking about. So I think being able to translate that and make it accessible to people who don’t live in this space all the time is one of the keys to success. Success for either for continuity planning for security. Um, yeah. Just for being a successful organization when it comes to integrating technology. Okay.

[00:31:11] Evan Francen: Yeah, totally. The uh, just one of the reasons why I got up early is I have a talk today to give at infra guard and the title for my talk is they’re not listening. Yeah. You know, so along those same lines, there’s reasons why they’re not listening. It’s not because they’re dumb. It’s not because they don’t care. We haven’t done a good job. I actually outlined five reasons why I think they don’t listen. one is we’ve oversold fear. Yeah. Uh, logic and logic and reason are much better sales points than fear.

[00:31:46] Amy McLaughlin: Hey, I would definitely agree with that. You can only play the chicken little card once or twice.

[00:31:54] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Well it’s the constant deluge of right? The breaches and people just get fatigue and tune it out. And as soon as that happens, we’re fighting an uphill battle. It’s even harder.

[00:32:08] Amy McLaughlin: Yes, absolutely.

[00:32:12] Evan Francen: And, and this is,

[00:32:13] Amy McLaughlin: you’re talking about the unknown, right? And people don’t want to know about the unknown, right?

[00:32:21] Evan Francen: Well and ignorance certainly won’t save you from it.

[00:32:24] Brad Nigh: No.

[00:32:25] Evan Francen: Yes. You know when that bad, that bad thing happens. See that’s the thing, I, I’ve had conversations, I remember one that stuck out with me with a bank bank president. It was a pretty good sized bank. And one of the things that I had kind of railed on, I ranted a little bit was the fact that you didn’t have an incident response plan. Right? And so you’ve got incident response plans. You’ve got disaster recovery plans. If you have business continuity plans, you’ve got all these different plans. Right? But a lot of many of those plans are written in case the bad thing happens, Right? And we have said it many times, it’s not a matter of when are no matter if it’s a matter of when And I think we’ve oversold that statement to but just play it out. So what I did with this bank President was it’s like, well, we don’t need an incident response plan. Like also you can guarantee that you’re never going to have an incident. Yes. Well, no, I can’t guarantee that therefore. So my response back was therefore, you should have an incident response plan unless you can guarantee that this isn’t gonna happen. You know, it’s kind of a long listing lines with business continuity too many times have we sat across the table from the executive management or leadership and had to explain to them that you’re not going to recover.

[00:33:56] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Well, I can’t do

[00:33:59] Evan Francen: you

[00:34:00] Brad Nigh: know how many times during where we’re working an incident where one of the business people on it goes, I didn’t think this would ever happen or you know something along those lines, it’s, you know, this happened to us, I thought we were prepared.

[00:34:18] Evan Francen: Uh Yeah,

[00:34:19] Amy McLaughlin: well and I think you know to your point, I mean schools don’t have an option, they’ve got to figure out how to keep going forward, especially like public schools, you know mandated to continue to go forward and so you got to have, I mean they’ll find a way it’s just thinking about and planning in advance is much preferable to having to make it up on the fly. Um done both. I try to learn from my own mistakes and help people not repeat my mistakes and uh I think it’s really, there’s value in having plans. The one nice thing about working with schools, colleges and universities is that they, they do plan for other scenarios, right? You have active shooter plans, you have, so they have a culture of preparedness, they just have to apply it differently. And I think that when you can leverage something, people are already doing, it’s easier for them to attach to in education. We call that scaffolding, you build on what you already know,

[00:35:23] Evan Francen: that’s a great, I like, I like that concept,

[00:35:27] Brad Nigh: why reinvent the wheel if you’ve got something that works was just use that to start, I like that a lot

[00:35:33] Amy McLaughlin: and we can show people how they’ve been successful in the past, it’s easier for them to conceive of how they can do the next piece because they really all tie together. Uh huh.

[00:35:46] Evan Francen: Well the one that the one thing about incidents that’s universal, it is when an incident occurs, whether it’s a site accident or disaster or a full blown, you know, epidemic or pandemic where you need to pull out your your business continuity plan. The one thing that’s common amongst all of those is people suffer if people didn’t suffer, nobody would care. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t be doing this job, I’d be doing something different. But the fact of the matter is people suffer when bad things happen. And so we write these plans to limit the suffering of parents, students, teachers, admin the community hardly. I mean there’s there’s no other institution that’s more ingrained in communities than schools.

[00:36:39] Amy McLaughlin: Yeah, this is true and in some communities the school literally is the center of the community. Um you know, it’s the center of sort of the whole the whole town. I mean I live I live out west, I live in Oregon, we have districts where the school is the big building in town,

[00:37:00] Evan Francen: right? Yeah. It’s like the place like I’ve seen it be I’ve seen schools used as assembly points when a tornado hits the town and the school still standing. So everybody meets there. I’ve seen it used to house people whose homes have been destroyed, right, they set up cots and in the auditoriums and things. I mean that is such a central part of every community. Uh So I love the fact that you wrote this book because it goes to the heart of what it is that we do here, right? Let’s limit people suffering. Let’s try to make it make the world a better place, right,

[00:37:35] Amy McLaughlin: one step at a time. But yeah, I mean that that was really my my main reason was how do I support this amazing group of people who who just aren’t don’t have the tool set to to do this level of planning and make it easy?

[00:37:55] Brad Nigh: You said it earlier. You know, they they see it as a mission and I would agree that Almost to a person, anybody that’s working in K through 12 or higher, right? They’re not doing it just for a paycheck. They’re extremely passionate about what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. And yeah, doing that with limited resources and High pressure of right? Like you said, K through 12 public schools have to have a certain amount of days open with the tenants. And how do you manage and maintain that and support that? It’s good to give them more resources that will make their lives easier.

[00:38:39] Amy McLaughlin: Mhm. And that aren’t taking and take them hours and hours to read, right. That was my key goal, let’s make this faster after

[00:38:50] Evan Francen: and less expensive to, right? I mean a lot of schools, you know, they don’t have unlimited budgets. So especially rural schools I think. Um So giving them an easy to follow, this is how you create this is how you do continuity planning. It may not cost you anything very

[00:39:10] Amy McLaughlin: much. Exactly and you can leverage what you’ve already done. So let’s talk about what you’ve done and then use that to move forward um because you know, no point in duplicating effort

[00:39:23] Evan Francen: either. Very cool. So I’m gonna highly recommend this book. We do work in addition, that’s one of the markets are trying to serve ah you know, with cola and you know, all the other uh good good people in this in this industry. I’m also gonna recommend it. We have some partners that work in, it’s not just written for administrators or it’s not just written for people who are charged with doing continuity planning uh as employees of, you know, districts or universities or colleges. It’s also for consultants, if you’re doing consulting for these institutions follow this right? Because not only I think does it make it easier and less expensive for you to do it, which should mean a smoother, more successful project. But if school district A. Is doing it this way in school district B is doing it this way to you got this commonality and languages across different institution. It’s like an additional value in that.

[00:40:38] Amy McLaughlin: Yeah. Yeah. I think you’ve got a great point there, Evan, you know, it helps build um momentum, right? If people can share and share alike and use the same language set. Yeah,

[00:40:51] Evan Francen: yeah, so cool. Uh, the book is uh, actually, you know what, we should do a thing brad. We should do like The first three people are five people listeners who email us, we’ll send them a copy. Oh, I got an expense account man. I can write All right, we’ll do that. So the first five people to contact uh, us at un security at proton mail dot com, we’ll send you a free copy of Amy’s book, learning continuity planning handbook for schools, colleges and universities.

[00:41:38] Brad Nigh: You do realize that means we actually have to check the email now.

[00:41:42] Evan Francen: I know right. Creating more work for myself

[00:41:46] Amy McLaughlin: with forward by Ryan clutter from

[00:41:48] Evan Francen: security. That’s right. We like Ryan. Alright, good stuff. So Amy, thanks for joining us and stick around. We’re going to go through, you know, the rest of today’s, you know, kind of agenda we’re gonna get through. Just briefly talk about kind of the status of our book that we’re working on, talk about the CSP mentor program in in news. So fantastic. Yeah. All right. So our book brad. I’ve been, I was, I went down to Cancun, I came back sunday afternoon. I am self quarantining now. It’s like, it’s funny because uh, I almost fell on that. By the way, I got a plane landed sunday evening and john Herman, the president of fire secure, uh texted me and said, hey you coming into the office tomorrow you know because we had our all company meeting. I was like yeah yeah I’ll be there you know whatever. And I was like oh wait a second and I just traveled internationally. I don’t think it’s a good idea for me to go anywhere. I’ll self quarantine. Uh Anyway, besides what I’m doing, my my wife had a successful Dental surgery which was awesome. She had like five teeth pulled and all kinds of uh stuff. So that was good. In the middle of all that. I did get a jump on the book. Our book, I have multiple titles. I don’t know which title works the best I never do until like Amy said that is the in my opinion that is the right way to write the book. You throw you just throw thoughts out, right? Don’t don’t stifle the creative process by trying to make sure you did it right. Just vomit stuff on paper man. And then we’ll start to make sense.

[00:43:47] Brad Nigh: Your editor and publisher will take care of that fixing and making suggestions for you don’t don’t try and make it perfect.

[00:43:58] Evan Francen: No and I almost killed my and I quote him. The last editor almost killed him. Okay. Yeah there

[00:44:07] Brad Nigh: was

[00:44:09] Evan Francen: well my first chapter. I mean that first could have been a book in that first book. You may have just run on, run on, run on run. He’s like what the hell are you know this is yeah anywhere. So it’s really gonna be the this is the titles I have right now. The V. C. So handbook, it’s the official guide to VC suing. They’re like adding I. N. G. On the end of words that would probably won’t make it past the marketing people. Uh The other one is the VC so bible because bible there’s the religious form of bible but it’s also a book regarded as authoritative in a particular fear.

[00:44:56] Brad Nigh: Be interested to see what marketing and other come back with on that because I can see that going either way.

[00:45:06] Evan Francen: Yes we can and we can come up with all kinds of different wow titles. But anyway the book flows from really basic to more advanced as you get through it. Right? There’s no sense in us getting right into the advanced stuff. If you don’t even understand the basics. Right? Uh section one is the basics, assuming we stick with what we’ve got for the outline Chapter one. Information Security is a thing. It’s not the thing. We get so passionate about security in our industry that we think it’s the thing and we set these expectations where the hell up here and they’re never gonna meet them because it’s not the thing and never will be to them. You

[00:45:52] Brad Nigh: lose track of the fact that it’s you should be supporting the business not dictating how the business functions.

[00:45:59] Evan Francen: Yes. Right. 100%. That’s why you and I are gonna have fun because once we got this and we ran this outline then we’ll just start giving up chapters between you and me because we are co writing, this right Chapter two. What is a v. c. so anyway, Chapter three Methodology Matters right? For a number of reasons. If we don’t have a methodology, then yeah, I don’t eventually get chaos. Section two is the fact system. So that’s something that we did at fr secure uh specific to f are secure. So you could call it intellectual property, but we have a mission that’s not too create a whole bunch of intellectual property. It’s to fix the industry. So this is where we open up and make the fact system essentially all day, buddy.

[00:46:45] Brad Nigh: Well, and, you know, we’ve talked about this a lot of the stuff that we’re doing isn’t right? It’s out there. It’s the the expertise of actually executing it, right? Just because there’s something there doesn’t mean people can successfully do it.

[00:47:05] Evan Francen: Well, that’s it, man. There’s so many, it’s like standards, right? There are so many information security standards. What the world doesn’t need is another damn information security standard. What we need is how do I actually apply that standard? How do I actually managed to it? How do I actually measure, you know, to it? And so do your point man. Yeah. The the no knowing things. Knowledge is already out there. It’s how to that is really hurting right now

[00:47:37] Amy McLaughlin: and you’re going to have examples, right? Evan? Yeah. Like case examples. I think people learn most from how somebody else did it.

[00:47:45] Brad Nigh: I think that for sure, you know when talking to people and being able to relate and say, okay I’ve seen this. Here’s what here’s what we’ve done here is how other people have done it. And being able to use those real world examples is so powerful because you’re it’s not this you know, abstract concept. It’s this happened. Here’s what we can do it.

[00:48:09] Evan Francen: Yeah, I can share examples of getting thrown out of board meetings so don’t do this what’s happened? But chapter four First Things first, chapter five. The journey begins 50.8, chapter six. Whereas point B. Then chapter seven, how are we going to get their chapter eight? When will we arrive? Chapter nine. Tracking progress. That’s all within the fact system. Section three is about mastery now that you kind of got this thing down. How do you master it? How to become awesome at it? Uh Chapter 11. Master Mastery requires repetition. Chapter 12, Integration and Innovation. Chapter 13. But but but what about compliance? Uh and that I like that title but but but what about compliance? Right. Yeah, I think it’ll be fun.

[00:49:04] Brad Nigh: Oh sorry, good.

[00:49:06] Evan Francen: No, I said I think I think it’ll be a fun book. We’ll see what happens.

[00:49:09] Brad Nigh: I laughed at that title or of that chapter when I was reading through it with you hear people saying that, that we’ve worked

[00:49:18] Evan Francen: with. Yeah, one mm. The # one driver for information security spending and initiatives is compliance. And what it should be because we’ve been doing it wrong for a long time where it should be is how does this provide value to the business?

[00:49:39] Brad Nigh: I’ve said it so many times. You know, if you’re looking for a checkbox compliance, we’re not right for you. We’re going to do security properly and in the process, get you to compliance. But the compliance is kind of a a benefit of doing security in the right way,

[00:49:58] Evan Francen: bingo. Letter of the law versus intent of the law, right compliance. If everybody did the intent of the law, they’d be doing something like this. But instead what they do is they do the letter of the law, which is what’s the minimum necessary that I need to do. And how many times we heard executive management say that. Oh yeah. How what’s the, what’s the cheapest way we can get there? What’s, you know, what’s the least disruptive thing we can do to get compliant? Oh, I don’t know. I don’t want you anymore.

[00:50:27] Brad Nigh: I mean, yeah,

[00:50:28] Evan Francen: I

[00:50:30] Brad Nigh: had an executive, we were gonna got any EMC or something and one of the drives wind and they’re not cheap. Right? Like back. Gosh, just would have been 10 years ago. So you’re looking at, You know close to $1,000 and it sends an email back and says With a link to Amazon with a hard drive. Like this is $100. Why aren’t we doing this and trying to explain like, hey, just because it’s the same thing. It’s not the same thing.

[00:51:08] Evan Francen: Right? Yeah, totally. All right. So that’s that’s kind of where we’re at on the book. Uh, yeah, I’ll be getting some more stuff over to you soon bread and then we’ll start giving it up. You should have a meeting and kinda, I want to do this one. I want to do that one. And then I think the challenge were co written anything like this with somebody before. I think the challenge is going to be, how do we blend our voices into a cohesive sort of one voice or we just make it clear that brad and Evan, right? This is brad. This is Evan. But we’re still in agreement.

[00:51:44] Brad Nigh: I can when I can definitely see a little or whatever they’re called. Don’t boxes where like you wrote a chapter and I’ll make a comment or add on something. Right? So I think there will be a lot of going back and forth and

[00:52:00] Evan Francen: yeah, different perspectives. Man, I’m a huge fan of perspectives. God knows I don’t got it all figured out and you don’t either. So maybe between the two of us, we got a little bit more figured out. I don’t know. Hopefully, well they keep paying me something’s happening around here.

[00:52:18] Brad Nigh: So I keep saying customers asked about the beard was like, well, I must know something because they let me get away with it.

[00:52:24] Evan Francen: Yeah, they ain’t paying me for my looks, right. Be paying somebody else. All right. Uh, we’re good. Uh, next thing. Uh, CSP mentor program registration opened last week. I’m super jacked about this because this has been so core to our mission Since the first time we did it, which was 10. We had six students. Then I still know those six people. I still remember them intimately. They came to the office, right? We it was just awesome. And then we had a dinner at the end where we celebrated them making it through. Um, Well, that was 2010. This is 2021 Last year we had 2040 I think registered students. So from 6-2004 40. 100% free. No strings attached people like think one of two things when you tell them it’s free, they’ll either think, well, there must must not be any value in it if you’re giving it away or they think, yeah, bait and switch. What are you gonna celebrate? All right. Nothing. Neither of those things exist. Year track record. Yeah, man. And I absolutely love. I can’t tell you how big of a blessing it is for me to, you know, to get those emails throughout the year from people saying thank you for asking for an endorsement. You know if they pass the exam. Uh I’ve gotten you know we’ve gotten emails from people saying this inspired them to pay it forward. They’re doing something, you know it’s just man that’s what this is about, right? Uh That’s really cool registration opened last week so you can go to F are secure dot com. Is that a resources or something?

[00:54:19] Brad Nigh: Resources?

[00:54:20] Evan Francen: Okay. Did

[00:54:23] Brad Nigh: I say something there was like already like 900 people or something. Did I am I making this up?

[00:54:30] Evan Francen: I don’t know man,

[00:54:33] Amy McLaughlin: There’s at least one I registered.

[00:54:36] Evan Francen: Oh I’m excited about that. I love it. Yeah Shelly grow from the daily insanity mentioned that she registered. She’s like she joked. So you take repeat students like yeah we take all students, there’s no you can have zero experience. You won’t be able to be a C. I. S. S. P. But you can still pass the exam and become an associate via C. Squared until you get the required experience.

[00:55:08] Brad Nigh: And we’ve had executives that I don’t have any intent of taking it just so they understand it better. Like just sitting through it and listening and absorbing it will it will change how you think of things, how you look at them.

[00:55:27] Evan Francen: Yeah. Yeah it’s super cool. So open to anybody. High school students, college students, homemakers. Career changers, I. T. Folks, business executives, whatever everybody is welcome. We have space for as many as it takes. If we run out of space will just make more space. So

[00:55:52] Brad Nigh: yeah, The marketing has set a goal of 4000 people this year.

[00:55:59] Evan Francen: I can remember when the goal was 20. Yeah. So that’s super cool. The, uh, what else do I want to mention about that? Okay, so the weather class basically works. We’re gonna teach you everything that you need to know to pass the exam and then tell you real, you know, speak of that with real world stuff like stuff that we actually do. And then, um, we’ll tell you about all the things that you can forget about afterwards because there’s a lot of memorization of a lot of stupid stuff, man. I mean, that’s stupid. Very wise. It’s all right. But it’s, you know, it’s not practical. Yeah. Uh, and, and for me to, you know, I mean, takeaways for people that this, uh, you obviously have the blessings of getting the encouragement throughout the year, but you also makes you a better security person. It makes me revisit the basics every year. Like, yeah, I should probably do that asset management thing that you talk about. Um, charlie.

[00:57:02] Brad Nigh: Yeah, there’s, there’s absolutely topics that I’m like every year, like, oh yeah, I’ve been part of this since last year.

[00:57:09] Evan Francen: Yeah, those security models, man. That is the driest domain. I’m not doing it this year. Well, brian and I already decided you were. Well, I guess last year job of it. Yeah, you did such a good job of it

[00:57:26] Brad Nigh: though. We’ll

[00:57:30] Evan Francen: Make Ryan do it then. He’s the youngest. Don’t wait. Maybe you are so old people, old people can’t do it. I’m 50.

[00:57:39] Brad Nigh: Yes, this is my fourth year. I think he can do it this year. Be Nice woman’s first you now now he’s got some experience. He’s got to do it,

[00:57:49] Evan Francen: yep. Now he’s brought in hook line and sinker. Yeah. So those are the instructors to, it’s me, uh, you brad and Ryan Cloutier. I’ve gotten a couple of emails lately of other people that would like to also teach and what I’m thinking. I’d rather do rather than have them teaching this class is we only do it once a year. Why don’t we make this perpetual? Yeah, we have another one, you know, end of second quarter, maybe in the third quarter.

[00:58:20] Brad Nigh: Yeah, I’ve definitely heard a lot of, you know, can you do it again in the fall? No, still a lot of time that goes into that. But if we could get another group that could do kind of a second half of the year, I think that would, there would be interested in that.

[00:58:40] Evan Francen: Well, and at that point we can create essentially a teaching in about, right. Here’s all the slides, just all the content, Here’s everything that you need. Here’s instructions on how to set up the ah, in another streaming section, you know, how to set up the web conference. I mean just get everything kind of like here just take this and go,

[00:59:01] Brad Nigh: yeah, the trick is I think getting people that have the experience that can speak to it knowledgeably and no versus just reading off sides because if we do that then it’s not gonna, I think it will be as successful. That’s a big part of what makes it successful as is our experience of being able to say right, like those real world experiences and here’s what you can remember what you don’t need to, here’s what we, you know, Yeah, the book says this, you need to know it, but we all know that. Here’s how it actually happens. Those types of things.

[00:59:36] Evan Francen: Yeah, very true, proper vetting anyway. Uh yeah, so that’s good. I’m excited about that. Uh, Anything else to add for that brad amy? I’m glad that you’re in the class amy and brad. I’m glad you take one third of the workload from me.

[00:59:53] Amy McLaughlin: I’m glad you take repeat

[00:59:56] Evan Francen: always. Always.

[00:59:59] Brad Nigh: Well, thank you to you know, the other analysts that helped moderate

[01:00:03] Evan Francen: to Yeah. Right, right. And Brandon Mattis for putting it all together. He’s the marketing guy behind it.

[01:00:09] Brad Nigh: You got chad and Lori and Ryan, we’re the biggest kind of that we were there in and out itself.

[01:00:19] Evan Francen: Yeah, trump on the story behind and then we’ll move the story behind, get you know how you got involved and same with Ryan by the way, I didn’t have to recruit you, I was teaching these by myself, you heard about it, you’re like I’ll help you answer yourself right into the process and uh but it speaks volumes to your character and same thing with Ryan, you know Ryan like well this is really cool part of the mission I want to help and so he, he jumped in last year or two in the middle of a pandemic

[01:00:55] Brad Nigh: and then when you realize what you’ve got yourself into its too late. So here it is four years later.

[01:01:00] Evan Francen: But when you share the workload with three, I can tell you when I was doing it myself. It was, it was training even with you and me, it was hard man, it was a lot of work with Ryan now now we only have to teach like once every, we can have two weeks. That’s that’s pretty easy.

[01:01:20] Brad Nigh: It was, it’s so much easier this last time and you know I’ve done the week, you’ve done it to the week boot camp as it were with the slides where you’re doing You know, 7, 8 hours a day, 4-5 days and you go get, I’d be so completely fired on the way home, just completely on autopilot trying to recover.

[01:01:47] Evan Francen: Yeah, your voice doesn’t work, your tongue goes numb, it doesn’t matter how much water are you drinking there?

[01:01:52] Brad Nigh: You can’t, at the end of the day, you, you can’t think critically you’re just like completely fried

[01:02:00] Evan Francen: and I don’t know about you but I sit when those times I would sit it I would go home and go to the hotel where I was teaching. I think the last thing I did was universe at the University of Miami. Uh And I just go to hotel and just sit. I would I didn’t want to talk to anybody because I was so tired of hearing my own

[01:02:17] Brad Nigh: voice. Just put on something mindless on the T. V. Just to have a distraction for your brain. So it’s not focused

[01:02:26] Evan Francen: and yeah

[01:02:27] Brad Nigh: just veg out if absolutely it takes a couple hours for me to kind of like oh okay gosh I’m hungry. I should probably eat

[01:02:38] Evan Francen: right. All right good onto the news. I’ve got just three quick news articles we know about them quickly. I just thought they were interesting. One is from the hacker news. The title is jokers stash the largest karting marketplace to shut down. It’s interesting. These things always happen right? I mean they don’t live forever. Eventually somebody talks to somebody. Somebody leaks something, somebody gives off some sort of signature that identifies who they actually are and then the authorities come custom and stuff happens. So

[01:03:16] Brad Nigh: I mean They originated in 14 and have generated over a billion in revenue. You know

[01:03:25] Evan Francen: a lot of money ma’am. Well the and the way these things work too it’s like uh a lot of people who buy things from these places by things were stolen? Uh huh. They should anyway. I mean I don’t know. I’ve never bought anything from a marketplace like this, but I certainly wouldn’t use my own credit card or anything. You know, if I was going to uh Bitcoin. Sure. Maybe. But I think a lot of times people are using stolen methods to buy stuff, maybe if you’ve never been uh on the dark web before, you can buy anything. Be careful anything. Yes. The darkest of the dark stuff is on there and stuff that you can’t ever unsee. So even the curious people are like, I just want to check it out. Okay, be careful. Uh There’s things I’ve seen that I can’t unsee and I I wish I wouldn’t have seen it to be honest. All right, so that’s that. Uh I thought that was interesting. What else do I have? I have hackers leak. Uh So this is from threat. Post hackers leak stolen. Pfizer and biontech bio an end tech uh Covid 19 vaccine data. That was only a matter of time. Uh So on the heels of cyber tech E. M. A. So Iemma is the european medicines agency. Uh The crooks got in compromised data related to the vaccinations now. Didn’t get the actual vaccination itself, right? All the one. And everything that goes into that. But data around it data but who’s gotten vaccines and all that good stuff. Mhm. Yeah. Be careful. Yeah.

[01:05:25] Amy McLaughlin: You know that one’s worrisome just because it points out the risks of public well of of organizations that have such highly sensitive data. I mean you know the bigger concern is getting ahold of the actual formula or actually messing with the formula. It’s the integrity rather than uh you know rather than getting the information that’s what somebody could do to it. You know? I thought about that as I’ve already received my I work in a health clinic so I received my first immunization and I thought I don’t want anybody compromise that formulas. Mhm. Yeah.

[01:06:03] Evan Francen: No that’s

[01:06:05] Amy McLaughlin: business value by the way. There is your business security right there.

[01:06:13] Evan Francen: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. In the me. I’m messing with it. You can kill people. You could do all kinds of nasty things. Uh The other Along those same lines the one critical infrastructure segment that really hasn’t gotten the attention it needs to. That is a big concern of mine is our food supply. The same sort of thing can happen, right? I mean you can mess with the food supply and endangered a lot of people. Yeah. It’s relatively easy.

[01:06:49] Brad Nigh: Well I think with uh CNN c coming out there’s gonna be a lot of uh agriculture that’s going to be in for a little bit of a surprise because they’re going to have Requirements for at least level one good. So hopefully they get some thinking about it.

[01:07:09] Evan Francen: Yeah. And the work I’ve done an egg. It’s troublesome, you know what I mean? Yeah. All right. Uh the last news I got us from beta news serious. Windows 10 flock could corrupt your hard drive if you open a full right. All right. The security researchers revealed details of a strange bug that could result in an N. T. F. S. Hard drive becoming corrupt in Windows 10. The good thing is your data would still be there. It messes with the allocation table which is essentially what tells the operating system where stuff is. So you can recover from it. It’s just gonna be a pain in the butt. Right?

[01:07:54] Brad Nigh: Yeah. Yeah. I can’t wait for Attackers to start using this.

[01:08:00] Evan Francen: Oh well hopefully make yourself it will. Okay. Patch. Yeah. Uh huh. So complete within a running the command C. D. C. Colon backslash colon dollar sign, lower case I 30 colon dollar sign. Bit map. Well, essentially destroy the hard drive. Don’t do it. Please don’t. Right? Or do in the lab.

[01:08:30] Amy McLaughlin: Please don’t do it on my machines.

[01:08:33] Evan Francen: Right. This is what labs are for. Yeah. Okay. That’s all I got for news. Uh Do you have anything to add on that? Amy anything bad on that news stuff? Not

[01:08:48] Amy McLaughlin: really. Just know that they didn’t get the formula and your you should still get your immunization

[01:08:55] Evan Francen: Please. My mother actually is getting hers. She’s 73. Uh I was asking her um when she’s scheduled, she’s scheduled for I think her first shot in beginning of february, so only a couple of weeks away and then her second shot towards the end of february. So I’m really excited for her to get her vaccine.

[01:09:16] Brad Nigh: Wife is a nurse, she gets her first shot tomorrow, so she’s excited. I’m excited cause she has to go in to the clinic still. So it’ll be one last thing to stress it out

[01:09:28] Evan Francen: totally man. I think you get such a peace of mind from getting the vaccine and for the anti-vaxxers out there are the people that think there’s some kind of conspiracy crap here. Yes. Seriously?

[01:09:40] Brad Nigh: Talk to somebody who’s have it.

[01:09:42] Evan Francen: Yeah. Check your brain. We talk about mental health. Maybe there’s an issue there. There’s no shot we can give you for mental health for fixing that. Well, maybe No, no, no. Hold other thing. All right, so that’s it for episode 1 15. Thank you amy for joining us. Really, really good to see you love the book. I’m excited to see where it takes. You know, the impact it has on that industry. Thanks for having me for sure. And brad. Always good. Nice to see you again. And he shouts for anybody were to give I think a shout out to the people that support the CSP mentor program. Anything else comes to mind Amy you gotta shout out,

[01:10:25] Amy McLaughlin: oh, I will shout out to Ryan for writing the forward and for um to Ryan Greg and steve for really supporting me when I wrote this book. Uh that would be uh Ryan clutter of course my spouse steve Mclaughlin and um Greg sinker who is uh rights change management books and yes in the top 50 change man or I tell people in the I. T. S. M. People in the uh in the universe.

[01:10:54] Evan Francen: Yeah. And so spell his last name, viewers want to find his books

[01:10:58] Amy McLaughlin: or anything? S. A. N. K. E. R. Okay. Singer

[01:11:05] Evan Francen: mm brad. You got anything? I’m done with our shout outs. I forget to give too many of them just waters it down.

[01:11:13] Brad Nigh: Yeah. No, I think I’m good with just the shout outs to people helping with CSP. Yeah, me

[01:11:19] Evan Francen: too. Uh All right. Thank you for our listeners. Send things to us by email at unsecurity@protonmail.com. Just a reminder of the first five people who email us there and let’s go by the time stamps because we don’t check the email all the time. Uh the first five they’ll get a copy of Amy’s book. Uh well get it sent to you. Uh if you’re the social type socialize with us on twitter, I’m @BradNigh wait now I’m your at brad and I and I’m @EvanFrancen unless I compromise brad’s account then I’m at grad night but I’m not planning on doing

[01:11:58] Brad Nigh: that? We can tell you’ve been up all night.

[01:12:01] Evan Francen: Yeah. Yeah. Amy. How do people, how do you want people to get a hold of you? Uh do you have a twitter or anything?

[01:12:09] Amy McLaughlin: I’m on linkedin. That’s the best way to find me.

[01:12:12] Evan Francen: Lastly, we’ll be sure to follow security studio uh @StudioSecurity because we like to mix things up for you. And uh @FRSecure here, uh for more things that we might be doing, we’re gonna be giving away free stuff. We like helping people man, that’s why we do this. That’s it. Talk to you again next week.